Meet The Guest And The Myths

Chantal 0:12

Joining me today is Mark Williams, who is the service manager at Arthritis Action, and also hosts their podcast called the Arthritis Action Podcast. So check that out. There are over a hundred types of arthritis, and the two most common types being rheumatoid arthritis and osteoarthritis. In this episode, we're going to discover what exactly arthritis is and learn about the physical symptoms and often mental health impacts of living with it. I before I go any further, I'm going to give a visual description of myself. I am a female who is middle-aged. I've got all that. I've got brown skin. I have got long brown curly hair.

Marc 1:09

I'm very good, thank you. And thank you very much for having me.

Chantal 1:13

And could you please give a visual description of yourself?

Marc 1:17

Sure. So I'm a five foot nine white male, middle-aged also, uh, with I'm bald with a large, ever-greying ginger beard, and uh I'm wearing a dark blue shirt, which is also floral patterns, and a sunflower supporters lanyard.

Chantal 1:36

So we're matchy matchy.

Marc 1:38

Yeah, very good coordination today. Even not even planned.

Chantal 1:43

Um on the Arthritis Action website, there is a statistic or a quote, a fact that says that arthritis is one of the most common causes of disability in the UK and it can affect people of all ages, not just older people. So there's a bit of myth busting there as well. Um, and that's what today's episode is about. It's about myth busting, uh, what it is and who it affects.

Arthritis As An Umbrella Term

Chantal 2:12

So I'm gonna hand over to Mark, because he is coming with the expertise, to please explain to start off with what's the difference between rheumatoid arthritis and osteoarthritis?

Marc 2:25

So, yeah, they're really they're two really good examples for arthritis, because arthritis itself is an umbrella condition which covers, as you said, a hundred different types or over a hundred different types. And ribatoid and osteo are really good examples as to how different it could be. So osteoarthritis is probably the most common type of arthritis. And what essentially that is, is where there's been damage to the cartilage at the end of the bone, sort of where the joint forms. And that can cause a lot of pain, stiffness, and swelling sort of within the joint. And you know, it's kind of this can kind of happen through like, you know, either the cartilage being damaged or worn away or through injury. You know, there's lots of different reasons why that cartilage might, you know, basically be like degraded or like, you know, be damaged. And that is kind of what causes osteoarthritis in people. And sometimes through the extensive damage to the cartilage as well, the bones can attempt to heal themselves. So you may have heard the term wear and tear before.

Chantal 3:28

Yeah.

Marc 3:29

Yeah. So we we don't like that term very much. I understand why it exists because it rhymes and it's quite catchy. But we we prefer the term wear and repair for it, because the reason why we say that is what the bones will try and do is they'll try and heal themselves. And so they will try and actually repair the sites, because unfortunately, cartilage doesn't grow back. So the bones will try and do the job instead, and that could lead to something called osteophytes, which is where like the like little bony growths essentially, where it's, for lack of a better term, colouring outside the lines because it doesn't have that cartilage keeping in check. And that can you know reduce the amount of space within the joint, it can be very painful, you know, as bones can potentially kind of rub on each other, there's less space and less mobility. And so it's a it's a very physical kind of thing that's happening within your joint when you have osteoarthritis. Rheumatoid arthritis, however, which is the other most common type, is an autoimmune response. So it's actually your body's immune system attacking its healthy cells in the joint, thinking there's something wrong with them, but in fact there isn't, and it then causes pain, swelling, stiffness, and you know, some mobility issues via that route as well. So they kind of almost tantamount to the same thing, which is swelling and inflammation in the joints, but they come at it from completely different approaches.

Chantal 4:46

That's so interesting. So rheumatoid then, as autoimmune. So is that a um is that a hereditary or is it can anybody get it?

Marc 5:00

I mean, anyone can get it, unfortunately. I mean, there are things like there

Osteoarthritis And Wear And Repair

Marc 5:03

are some lifestyle factors that can make it a little bit more common, like it tends to be more prevalent in women than in men, pharitis. Uh there is a hereditary sort of element. It would put you in, it's not like necessarily hereditary. Like, you know, just because your parents have it doesn't mean you're definitely going to get it. But I think it does mean you're probably at a higher chance of getting it.

Chantal 5:25

Okay, right. And then osteo, um, I I've got a keen interest in this because my mum's got osteoarthritis and um just seeing the pain that she is in. Um, is that hereditary? Because that's something that gets from injury and wear and tear.

Marc 5:42

Yeah, I'd say it's much less likely, you know, like from a hereditary standpoint. Uh, but apparently, like with um, if if someone has osteoarthritis in their fingers, that's quite a bit more genetically common, like as a hereditary trait, apparently. So I'm so I'm informed. And I do think that it does depend a lot, again, on your lifestyle, what you've been through, because if it's damaged to a joint, if you've never had any damage to your joints, you're obviously less likely than someone who has had damage, and that's got nothing to do with who your parents are, really. Yeah. So it's it's more obviously you are the genetic lineage of your you know parents, essentially. So if you do have it, I guess you know, maybe there's something in you. But this one is far above my level of knowledge, really, when it comes to that one thing. It's it's definitely more likely with rheumatoid than it is with osteo to be hereditary, though.

Chantal 6:32

All the other hundreds that kind of they kind of fall into one, these kind of buckets or merge.

Marc 6:39

There's a lot of variety in it. Calling some things like something like inflammatory arthritis does cover a lot. So rheumatoid is a type of inflammatory, and you know, you get a whole selection of different ones which are like classed as that. You can even get things like uh gout, for example, which is a type of like crystal arthritis.

Chantal 6:57

Okay.

Marc 6:58

Which is where you're with uh crystals of uric acid, so it's crystallizing in your joint. It's usually the big toe for that one as well. It's a really, really varied minefield of conditions out there, essentially.

Chantal 7:11

Yeah, because I mean my terrible uh knowledge of gout was something that they would say that you know somebody like is it Henry VIII would have from drinking wine, and it's not that at all then.

Marc 7:24

Well, too much uh lot alcohol is not very good for gout in general. So, I mean aga one of the sort of I guess triggers for a flare-up for gout can be from drinking too much alcohol because a lot of um a lot of alcohol will have or types of alcohol will have purine in it, and if you have sort of foods containing purine, that can exacerbate gout.

Chantal 7:44

Okay. Right. So interesting.

Marc 7:47

So are there any present preventative steps that as you know, as as peop anyone that doesn't have arthritis, is there any preventative steps that we can take or is it so Yeah, it's it's a really tricky one because I uh I I don't want I don't like giving this answer, but the answer is you you can't prevent arthritis outright, unfortunately.

Rheumatoid Arthritis As Autoimmune

Marc 8:08

I wish you could, but there are loads of different things that you can do to like, you know, help with prevention. So prevention is like I know it's a term that everyone likes to use for this, but even though you technically can't, there are definitely things you can do which will be kind of weighing the odds more in your favour, shall we say? When it comes to something like osteo, you'd live the healthiest, most perfect life in existence and then have a car crash or fall down the stairs and damage a joint, which in could potentially lead to it in future. Doesn't mean it will, but it might. So there's no guarantees for any of it. But yeah, when it comes to prevention, some of the simple things I would sort of recommend are making sure that you exercise well, you know, if you if you're in good physical shape, making sure you maintain a sensible body weight, because especially if you have things like one of the biggest contribute contributing factors to something like osteoarthritis can be the amount of like excessive body weight that people carry around. Because if you think about any the amount of like you know, weight that goes through your body as you go on, if you're carrying more than you need, that's extra stress on your hips, knees, ankles, basically all your lower extremities. And there's a there's a really powerful statistic that for every kilogram of body fat that you would lose, it would reduce four kilograms of pressure from your lower joints. Oh wow. Gosh. Yeah, so that that's why I would say maintaining a healthy weight is is a really, really important one. Obviously, what that weight is will be different for everyone because we're all built in different shapes and sizes. So I can't give you a magic number, but you know when you feel good and you feel like you look good, like you know, you know you're not carrying too much. That's obviously more of the ideal than if you are carrying too much.

Chantal 9:46

Yeah. My mum she has had a lot of falls, she's fallen off madders multiple times doing DIY and gardening and falling up steps, falling over steps, tripping up things. Um, so it's it's kind of making sense and uh as to you know why she's why this has developed in her. Um it's it's really interesting. And so we've got the prevent

Risk Factors Weight Exercise Diet

Chantal 10:13

the you know, the prevention, but the statistics of people were mentioned it at the very beginning. Do you know what the statistics of people living with arthritis are in the UK and globally?

Marc 10:24

Yeah, so it's it's I think it's estimated around 10 million people in the UK have arthritis. And uh 10 million, yeah. And uh obviously, but these aren't always going to be like estimates essentially because lots of people won't know they have it, won't have reported it, won't have recorded. And I think um I think the World Health Organization reported that there are around 600 million worldwide.

Chantal 10:48

That's interesting. So yeah, especially when you think about it's not necessarily diet-led or you know, because living in warm temperatures, it it's it's outside of that, isn't it?

Marc 11:02

Yeah, definitely. Oh, I would say diet is a really useful tool though, especially depending on what type of arthritis you have as well. Because I know diet's always a really hot topic when it comes to arthritis. When you have something like gout, as I mentioned earlier, with like purine, you're gonna want to avoid foods that are high in purine, because that can have a big effect on gout. But one of the you know useful preventative things I think you can do is making sure that you have you know a healthy, well-balanced diet. You know, something akin to the Mediterranean diet would be a really good way to go. Yeah, because it's you know, lots of you know, healthy fats, whole grains, vegetables, you know, lots of good like healthy oils and fats and oily fish, things like that. These are all like you know, been proven to be very good for our joint health and our overall health, heart health, brain health, this all really counts. And the kind of the better condition you're in, just in general, you know, when you're like moving plenty, eating a good diet, making sure you're getting enough sleep as well to make sure you know your body's actually rested and restoring the way it can. These obviously they can't ultimately guarantee you won't get arthritis, but things like that are gonna give you the best chance of even when it if it does come on, if your body's in good shape, your muscles are strong, and things like that, your body

Early Symptoms And Early Diagnosis

Marc 12:18

will be able to deal with it a lot better.

Chantal 12:20

Yeah. And what are some of the symptoms that people begin to experience um, you know, at the beginning of their journey with arthritis? When would be uh uh you know a time to be like this isn't quite right?

Marc 12:37

Yeah, it's it's a very tough one, isn't it? Because I think it's it's very different for different people. And you know, what type of arthritis you have, what type, where it's happening in your body, because it could be happening in, you know, it's it's almost going to feel like it's it's very different if you have it, say, is rheumatoid arthritis. You might have that since you were a child, you know, you may have had juvenile idiopathic arthritis and eventually kind of like becomes rheumatoid, as opposed to when you have osteoarthritis or something. So I think basically one of the things to really look out for would be like any pain, swelling, or stiffness in your joints. It's not necessarily always going to be visible. I think with fingers and things like that, you might be able to see it a bit easier. For example, um hot or red-looking joints can definitely be something you should potentially get looked into because that could be, you know, inflammation in the joint like showing in a very external way. But sometimes, you know, if it's in your hips, for example, you're not gonna really see any outgoing signs for that one. So, you know, if you're feeling that you are getting any sort of stiffness or pain or aching that's either not going away or is kind of gradually worsening, I think that would be a really good time to go and speak to your GP about that. One of the best things you can do really is to an early diagnosis can make a really big difference. Okay. Because the sooner you know what you've got, then the sooner you're able to act on it. You know, does that do you need to make some lifestyle changes? Should you finally stop smoking? Should you finally stop drinking too much? Should you start eating better and exercising more? And the sooner you know these things, you know, the sooner you can start to put these things into effect. And that could it can make a really big difference, sort of, on your, you know, the general outcome of everything and your and your lifestyle and you know your general health in general.

Chantal 14:22

Yeah. Uh Arthritis Action has a wealth of information on the website to help support people, doesn't it, with some guidance and all touching on all of those topics that you just mentioned. And presumably people outside of the UK can still access, you know, can go onto the website and have a look to see what recommendations uh the charity gives.

Marc 14:45

Oh, absolutely, yeah. Yeah, there's loads of resources. There, you know, it's it's uh it's on the internet, so it's globally available for everyone. Uh the things that we kind of follow are things like, you know, we'll follow up the NHS's advice. Everything that we do is backed by science. So obviously, you know, maybe some other country might dispute something. So just to bear in mind is this is global. Everything is based on like you know, the science in the UK, all the sort of the nice guidelines that are followed, sort of you know, with along things like that, the government will follow as well. So everything is very evidence-based that we do produce as well. Loads of fact sheets, recipes, exercises, a massive plethora of things that you can look through to help with your arthritis.

Chantal 15:28

And it can affect people of all different ages, is that correct?

Marc 15:33

Unfortunately, yes. Yeah, I mean, it there's definitely that stigma out there that it's for quote-unquote older people, which is absolutely not true. I mean, because you can get arthritis, unfortunately, at any age. It doesn't have to be, you know, one, it's not just older people, as I guess there is that misconception. For example, like, you know, there's juvenile arthritis, for example, you know, so people can have it from an incredibly young age. You can get osteoarthritis itself at any age. The numbers statistically do kind of show that you're more likely over the age of 45, but it's it's not exclusively that. I mean, I I was diagnosed myself with it in my lower back at 40, I think. I probably had problems before then, but they'd only really manifested at that point. So like it could be different for everyone. I've met people with osteoarthritis who are in their 20s. And I think the reason why it tends to be more thought of, I suppose, as a again, a quote unquote older person's issue, is that because it can osteoarthritis especially, because that could be through like, you know, wear damage, injury, things like that, the longer you've been alive, kind of the longer you've had the opportunity of it being injured or having that wear. So like, you know, they tend to it present itself later on in life because as we age, we maybe recover a little less. Or when you're young, you're you can like someone if you drop on the floor, you just bounce right back up again. You're like made of rubber when you're younger, and the only you get the stiffer things feel like they're becoming sometimes.

Chantal 17:05

I d totally can um uh uh you know reconcile that uh feeling, uh yeah, for sure. I came flying off a slide a couple of years ago, and my neck has not been the same since.

Daily Life Work And Isolation

Chantal 17:18

Um so yeah, no more slide slide action for me. Well, can you can you just talk us through what the lived experience is like for people who live with arthritis? You know, how it can affect home life and work and social interaction.

Marc 17:34

Yeah, sure. So I think something that really kind of always struck me, like I think probably the first time I heard it, and something that is is rings incredibly true is that arthritis doesn't just affect you physically. You know, if just because you have a physical condition where like yeah, a part of your body is doing something, it that will also then affect you psychologically and emotionally as well. Because you know, your mind and your body are as important as each other, they both live together in that same body, and you know, you can't separate them as long as you're alive, really. So they both matter and they're both going to be affected by something like this. Yeah, it can have it can have a huge impact, obviously, depending on the severity of it. Some people have a much easier time than others. Depends on the type, depends how bad it is, depends how much it affects you. It can cause, you know, a massive array of different issues for people. You know, people may end up having to on the on the sort of bad side of it, or the more negative side, people may have to give up some of the things that they perhaps used to love. Perhaps they were a very physical person and used to do loads of stuff outdoors and like on their feet all the time. That may not be possible if they had arthritis that was severe enough to stop them from doing it. And, you know, that can even then start to have an issue with things like maybe their level of independence. They may not be able to be as independent as they once were, or may not be able to be as social as they once were, because you know, maybe what they did was all very active and very outdoors, and without being able to do that in the same way, that can leave people feeling incredibly isolated. And it can have a real strain on your mental health as well. Even if it's just small things. I mean, though that they were all quite large things I was saying about, like, you know, as far as looting your independence. But, you know, people just not being able to do simple tasks can be incredibly, you know, it add a lot of sort of emotional weight to you, really. Because the things you've always taken for granted, the things you've done, you've kind of got things in your life that are like, I know how to do this, got this sorted, I can do all these things, I don't need to worry about that anymore. You almost may have to kind of relearn how to do all of those things, because the way that you did them once is no longer possible because of your condition. So it can change massively the way you live your life, the things that you do in it, and also, you know, sometimes your relationships and things like that can change as well. You know, you would also the way you interact with people or the things you go out and do. So it really can have a massive

How Arthritis Pain Gets Described

Marc 20:04

impact on people's lives.

Chantal 20:06

What does it feel? I don't know if you I mean you have you said that you have arthritis yourself, so you can describe, but can you describe what the pain feels like? I interviewed somebody uh who was implementing the sunflower in her workplace because she got arthritis and she's really young, and she she was saying people just don't understand at all that when I say I've got arthritis, they don't believe me because I just look too young. Can you describe what is the pain like?

Marc 20:37

That is a very personal thing for different people, I think. So I mean, like I I'm very fortunate that my arthritis isn't too bad. Like it it's it used to cause me a few problems, but I've kind of got a good handle on it through just a few lifestyle changes, different types of exercise they do. So I'm very fortunate. For me, it was more like a it's kind of like a dull ache, and it kind of ached a lot, especially first thing in the morning. I found it was aching more. When it got colder, it was worse as well. So I'd find that, you know, I'd have this like constant ache in in my hips and in my lower back, even though it was actually just my lower back that had it, because sometimes you could the pain can present itself in other areas as well, because everything's connected throughout these different areas in your body. And you know, some people feel it as like a burning pain, some people have it as a very like kind of dry thing. It can be very, very individual. I think this is a big problem people have when they're trying to get diagnosed or explain it to people, is that it's so hard to explain what your own pain feels like in words that someone else would understand. Because I've heard someone say it's like, oh, it's like there's a bag of sand in there. And I don't really understand what they mean by that, but that was how they described what their pain felt like, like sharp sand in their joint. Whereas that's something I've not experienced myself.

Chantal 22:01

Yeah.

Marc 22:01

So I think that's that's that's kind of a nice example as to how the way that you articulate it can be really different because. That's how it feels to you. So it's a very tricky one to explain, but yeah, everyone feels pain differently. I think it's really personal, and there are definitely experts you can talk to about it. You know, pain clinics. There's some like expert pain nurses and various other places, you know, your doctors, rheumatologists. And they use like things like you know, the pain scale, which is always quite a useful one. I know people think it's a bit silly sometimes, because it's basically just 10 faces, each with a different level of pain, because that could be a tricky one as well, actually. Because I remember interviewing someone for for our podcast once, and he was in a massive amount of pain. And because he's neurodivergent, he doesn't express it in the same way. So when he was expressing, like, oh, they said, like, so where's your pain level at? And I think he pointed at eight or something like that. Okay, well, you don't look like you're at eight, you go, This is what I look like when I'm at eight. Like, I'm sorry I'm not reacting at the same as on the chart, but yes, that that is what it is, yes. And so, yeah, it's like I say, everyone's outward and inward kind of like thing of pain is very, very different.

Chantal 23:13

Yeah. My mum, she was just saying that when she uh it it uh she has it in her hips and in her neck, and again, this is osteoarthritis. She said it felt like her her hips were basically the bones were nails, and they were just pushing in sort of from the top of the hip and then the bottom of the hip, put like just pushing into each other and just excruciating. Um, and I think that's the thing, isn't it? Arthritis is so it it's something that we're so familiar with that just don't really understand what their limitations and the barriers and challenges that an individual um has to endure um if they're living with it. So, and I think the fact that it's it's it is non-visible, you can't outwardly see it, it can affect children, like you said, makes it incredibly difficult for the outside society to maybe give the right level of compassion and empathy and understanding, because it's a term that we've heard for years and years and years, because it's what granny had, or what have you, it's arthritis. But to actually understand, you know, the the physical barriers and then, like you say, the mental barriers as well, because you want to go and do something, but you can't go and do that now because your you know your your body isn't letting you do things in the same way that it it once had, is very difficult to to navigate. So hopefully the podcast will help to educate and inform people a bit more about arthritis and um the effects that it can have on individuals and um hopefully we can as a society we can make changes to help you know be more inclusive for people who are living with it. For example, needing to to sit down. If you saw somebody who from the outside, you know, looks perceived to be quite healthy and physical, you know, uh and they need to sit down. It's it's it's things like that, isn't it?

Marc 25:27

It's really common. I think that's one of the things that especially especially for younger people who have it, is people don't believe them when they say there's something wrong. Like just standing there might be absolute agony, as you said, like with your with your mum and like how she felt in her hips, like that could just be someone's entire body at some points. And like they might be just like, I need to sit down. But to look at them, you can't see anything wrong with them at all. So people naturally assume that there isn't. I don't want to paint everyone with a bad brush because there is there are loads of people out there who are well aware of you know things like you know hidden disabilities and invisible conditions, and will like, oh, are you okay? You can just see that someone's not doing well. Like, take my seat, please sit down. And yeah, there are lots of people out there, but obviously it'd be wonderful if there are a few more.

Chantal 26:12

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that's what I always say. We need a an army of supporters, because the people who have got a disability, they know that already. It's for everybody

Hidden Disability Sunflower In Practice

Chantal 26:23

else to actually um you know be kind and understanding. And I wanted to ask you, what is what are your thoughts about the hidden disability sunflower as a as a tool to let others know that you have arthritis, not you specifically, but you know, the wearer?

Marc 26:43

I think it's great. I'm a big fan of hidden disability sunflower in general, because um to echo what um your CEO Paul said when I had a chat with him on our podcast, I think one of the really good things about it is that it allows you to show people that there is something going on and that you do have you know something like some sort of disability, but without having to go into any more detail than you want to. So that's something I really like about it is how, for example, if I was staying struggling while I was on the tube or something like that, and then someone could see, like, if I look like I'm struggling, they might notice, oh, do you want to do wanna have a seat? Because it allows me, I don't have to explain to them I've got rheumatoid arthritis, and like you know, my entire body feels like it's on fire. I don't have to explain all of that because that they can see that's what this means, and yeah, then maybe they'll give me a seat or let me, you know, rest a bit or something like that. Like the idea that it can like give you the option to say as much as you want.

Chantal 27:41

Yeah, and so thinking of places which which might be useful to wear it in, you you didn't mention the tube.

Marc 27:48

Um transport, airports, it's supposed anywhere that you feel that might be useful, to be honest. Like if you're if you work in a customer-facing job or something like that, it could be really useful for that as well. You know, if you if like say your mobility's affected by your arthritis and you have to go and get something, I don't know, from a stock room in a shop or something for someone. If you're wearing one of those, they maybe will get hopefully, if they're aware of what it is, will then maybe like not start getting ratty. If it takes you a while to get back with the thing you were covering deposit, they'll you know, get it, like, oh, they have a disability. Great, no problem, I'll give them a few extra minutes or something like that. That's the hope I I assume, anyway. You know, that people will make make some allowances or even you know, ask, like, do you need anything just in general? Like, can I help? No, no worries, okay, just want to check.

Chantal 28:38

Yeah, that's that's exactly right. It's just about being patient, isn't it? And having a you know, affording people a little bit more time and compassion. Is a word that I've used a few times during this uh podcast.

Marc 28:51

Yeah, I mean it's something that I just think I think a lot of people in general will do it if they know that there's something going on. I just think a lot of people don't realize or understand rather than are mean and don't care. I think a lot of it is like, you know, perception. Like people don't realize there's young people out there with arthritis, or you don't know when you see someone who has it because you can't see it. Unless their like fingers are really twisted into you know different shapes, you don't really ever see it. So I don't think people will ever no one just assumes, oh, maybe they have arthritis. Some might, but that's probably because they either have it themselves or know someone with it. It's not like in everyone's first thought if someone's yeah, you know, moving slowly or taking too long to get there or whatever it is. But you know, just in general, just yeah, be a be allowing and be nice to people. I've gone off topic. I just want people to be nice to everyone, just be nice to everyone. Come on.

Chantal 29:44

Come on, you can do it.

Marc 29:47

It's easy to be nice, just yeah, just be nice.

Chantal 29:49

Well, it is, and actually, it's it's good for you. There is that is actually proven, isn't it? That you know, these acts of kindness and paying it forward. If you do something nice for somebody else, not only does it make that person feel good, you also get a actual benefit from it.

Marc 30:08

Yeah, I think I just I mean I I love the idea of it just being just being nice for no for no reason whatsoever. Just you know, if you can make someone else's day, I love that personally. So it does doesn't matter about me.

Chantal 30:21

If someone else is alright, then that yeah,

Hand Changes And Closing Thoughts

Chantal 30:23

I'm can I just ask you before we come to an a close? You described um somebody's I just wanted to ask, yeah, when that when there's a physical change in somebody's hands, is that rheumatoid or osteoarthritis?

Marc 30:39

It's most likely osteoarthritis, because like you remember what I was saying before, how like the bones can attempt to repair themselves.

Chantal 30:45

Yeah.

Marc 30:45

So that can basically be like bone growths, where like the bones have continued to grow kind of outside of their normal shapes.

Chantal 30:52

Yeah.

Marc 30:52

And then that can then, you know, the joints can move in different positions, they can become much wider and so on. With rheumatoids, you might notice it just from extreme swelling within them. But yeah, when it's like that, the bones have actually kind of grown out of their initial shape. That's that's osteo.

Chantal 31:11

Right, okay. Thank you. Well, um, we had a few technical difficulties during this podcast. Hopefully, when the final edit goes out, you will not be aware of them as the listener. Um, but I want to thank Mark for sticking with it, and um especially as he is the host and producer of their own uh arthritis action podcast. So thank you so much for your patience, and please do check out their podcast because there'll be a lot of information on there that will be really valuable to you uh as either somebody living with arthritis or you know, a carer or partner or friend of somebody. And Mark, thank you so much for your time.

Marc 31:56

Thank you, Santa. I've had I've had a lovely time.