Welcome And Purpose Of The Series

James Dunn 0:00

We acknowledge and pay our respects to the traditional custodians of the lands on which we record, and especially to those who may also be living with a disability. Welcome to another episode where we will explore a variety of non-visible disabilities, the way in which people experience their disabilities, and discover the opportunities for society to make access and inclusion improvements that benefit everyone. Hi everyone, my name is James Dunn, and I'm your host. And like many of the guests on the Sunflower Conversations, I also live with disability, including myalgic encephalomyelitis, more commonly known as chronic fatigue syndrome, and postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome.

Speaker 0:48

To catch through.

James Dunn 0:57

On today's show, I'm joined by Vakesh Anand. Vakesh was born in New Delhi, in India, and was raised in New Jersey, in the United States. He now lives

Meet Vikesh Anand

James Dunn 1:06

in Brisbane on the lands of the Turbal and Yagara peoples. Vakesh has over 30 years of experience in IT across the USA, Canada, and Australia, and currently works at the University of Queensland. Vakesh has a stutter and is dedicated to raising awareness of stuttering and creating a world in which people who stutter are given the confidence, space, time, and opportunity to speak. He is a TEDx speaker, founder of the Australian Stuttering Association, known as Stutter, a keynote speaker, and is a passionate advocate for anyone who has ever felt different. Bakesh Henan, welcome to the show. Thank you, James. Thanks for having me. So perhaps we might start um with the basics. If you could just explain for our audience what a stutter is and the different types of

What A Stutter Is

James Dunn 1:47

stutter and what causes it.

Vikesh 1:48

Sure, thank you. So a stutter is, I guess the easiest way to explain it, it's a moment of disfluency, uh, interruption in sound when you're uh speaking. And there are different types of stutter in terms of the types of a physical block that you might have. So some of the types of blocks are you might but but but bounce on the word. Uh in some cases, you might slide on the word to try to get it out. Uh and in some cases, probably one of the more challenging is a silent block. And you can imagine if you're on a phone call and you're just trying to be quiet, um, you know, as a podcast listener would would understand like what just happened there, right? And that was me trying to get a sound out, but it's just a silent block. So those are the different types of blocks that occur. Um there are, I guess, uh, at a high level, two different types of uh people who stutter. So there's covert and overt. And so covert is really secretive. I'm gonna try to hide it as much as possible and try to portray myself as a fluent person. Um, over stutterer, it's fairly obvious. Uh, they're unable to really get over those sort of harder blocks, fit physical blocks. And um, and so it's it's it's more obvious to the listener that this is a stutter. Uh in terms of the cause, the cause is unknown. Uh and I'm not a researcher or scientist, but at the core level, it's just the way I'm wired. Right. Um, and there is no known cure uh at this time for stuttering as well.

James Dunn 3:42

Great. Well, that's a really good explanation. And I think it's probably a good segue to jump into our our mythbuster question, which we normally do a bit later, but I think it it works now, um given what you've just said. So what is the biggest myth or misconception you find that people have about people with a stutter? And at the same time,

Myths And How To Respond

James Dunn 4:03

we might ask a great question from our podcast community, which is connected to that, which is how do you deal with misconceptions and comments?

Vikesh 4:10

Sure. So there are probably a small the number of continuing myths and pre-perceptions even until today in 2026. Uh one is that the person is lying. Um, two is that the person is less intelligent, and three is they're just unsure of what they want to say. Um, all three of which are untrue, by the way. Um But um, you know, I I I think the the the challenge we're stuttering is that fluent people are not fluent 100% of the time, right? Yep. Lots of people experience moments of dysfluency, whether it's a stressful situation, a job interview, etc. etc. And so they relate it back to their experience, right? I was nervous the last time I had a moment of dysfluency, so you must be nervous as well, right? And we're like, well, that's not the way it works. And then, and then of course you have people say, you know, oh, and you know, it's it's it's an opportunity to share that. No, actually, that's not what it is, it's just a stutter. And then you have the response of, oh, I have a stutter too. And I'm like, oh, I uh I don't think it's the same, you know, because again, I think people are are are are trying to be nice, right? But yeah, having a moment of dysfluency throughout your life is not the same as as having a stutter. So I think those are some of the um the most common myths that um that continue today. And and I guess um, you know, it's it's on us, right? It's upon our stuttering community to really bring awareness and educate the listener, right? And I'm not saying that I always bring out my PowerPoint slides and be like, let me show you what this is, but it's more about, hey, no, I didn't forget my name. No, I just I just have a stutter, right? And I'm not I'm not apologetic about it. Um sometimes that statement leads to an apology from the listener going, oh sorry, I didn't know, and we move on. And sometimes it leads to a deeper and more meaningful conversation because they go, Oh, actually, I have a friend, family, et cetera, that also has a stutter. And let's talk about it. Right. Um, and and because it is invisible, um, unless I'm wearing my t-shirt that says I stutter, it's it's not to be expected, right? And uh, and so I think people have an expectation to hear words come out a certain way, right? And because 99% of the the adult community is fluent and only 1% of adults in the adult community stutter, um, it's possible that they just haven't met someone who stutters yet, right? And and so I don't I don't give that of uh a reason for rudeness, and and I have never encountered anyone who's actually been rude about it. Um, I genuinely, if I think about it from the listener's perspective, they just haven't met anyone else who stutters, and it's my opportunity to provide some level of uh uh uh awareness.

James Dunn 7:24

Great. Yeah, that makes sense. And I guess going back to the beginning of your life, what was your earliest memory of realising

James Dunn 7:33

that your speech was different? And was there a moment you realized that other people noticed it too?

Vikesh 7:39

Yeah, good question. For for me, it was grade seven. Um, so I think around I'm trying to try to think of age groups, maybe 10, 11 or however old I was. Um, but for some reason I remember the first day of group grade seven, and and this was growing up, as you said, in the US. Um, and that first day of class, I immediately became aware that my words sounded differently than others. Now, I've had a stutter since I could talk. So I so I had always started up until that point, but I was unaware that that was happening. Uh, and as soon as grade seven started, and maybe it's the age, etc., uh, I was just like, oh, this this doesn't sound the same as others. And that resulted in me sort of talking a whole lot less, um, and starting to really become self-conscious, really become fearful of like, what are people gonna think if they hear me stutter, what's my teacher gonna think if they ask me a question and I stutter because I know the answer, right? I I think I'm a pretty smart person. Like I know the answer, but they're gonna think I don't know the answer because uh the words aren't coming out immediately and fluently. Um, and so and so I think that that started the the journey for for me of really trying to hide my stutter and and go into this sort of secret agent covert lifestyle where I just I just had had decided, and and I think it's a it's a it's a societal challenge we have, right? Like in society, and if if you look at, for example, media, fluency is right and stuttering is wrong. And if in in if you look at the majority of films in in history, the person who stutters is the person who is nervous, is the person who is made fun of, is the person who is less intelligent, right? All of the myths that I said were untrue, but if you look at the media, you were like, oh no, that that must be true. That's me, right? That that must be what this is. And and I also grew up in a very fast-speaking state, which is New Jersey. So people always told me, calm down, slow down. And so I I believed them for a long time, right? I said, you know what, this is not stuttering, I'm anxious, and I talk fast. And so that's what this thing is. I and and and I convinced myself that if I do those things and if I try to change words on the fly and become covert, then I'll be fine. Um, and that is mentally exhausting, right? I I I distinctly remember, and the this is even all through university and then into the the the workforce and technology. I and the ironic part is that I've worked in sales for a long time, which is which is the ironic part of a person with a stutter working in sales. But I I used to deliver presentations, and I think, you know, be because of my stutter, I worked harder, right? I memorised things, I was I was aware of like these are the words I'm gonna avoid because these are the words that I might trigger on a stuttering block. But I would deliver these presentations only thinking about how do I hide my stutter. So I would I I remember delivering a presentation, and it was it was probably one of the bigger ones, 50 to 100 people. My colleague said that was a great presentation. And I honestly couldn't remember what I said. The only thought was, did anyone hear me stutter? Um, and as you can imagine, uh that can be emotionally and mentally draining having to go through that every day.

James Dunn 11:39

Yeah, absolutely. That would be exhausting. And I can imagine that when you're in a conversation with people, you're kind of running this tactical operation almost about how to get through that conversation and and and almost a chess game, which must be really exhausting.

Vikesh 11:56

Exactly. Yeah, no, it and it and it it it really is, like I'll I'll give you a very simplistic example, right? But if I wanted to say that I rode my bike to work today, but I knew that I would mu uh that I might have a problem on the B sound, I would, you know, like it's it's it's a feeling you get as you're speaking. So I could be like, I rode my cycle today, right? Or I rode in today. So I would just skip the word uh and in that context, it still sort of makes sense, but there would be times when I would switch the word and not make sense. But I would rather have sounded less intelligent than been found out that I had a stutter, right? And when I think about that, I was like, wow, that's like I I would rather have not made sense and people think I was a fluent person not making sense than have that phys physical stuttering block, which um which says a lot about the impact that it can have on someone's life.

James Dunn 13:00

Yeah, absolutely. So it sounded like your daily mission was to avoid those words and for people to to not think you had a stutter at all.

Vikesh 13:09

That that was my daily mission and my daily recap at the end of the day. Um, most people try to relax before they they go to sleep. Me, it was the opposite, right? I was I basically replayed the entire day every night and going, what were the moments that I might have been caught out there? Was it ordering that coffee in the drive-thru? Was it this or that? And then how how do I plan for that for tomorrow? Uh, and repeat that every night.

James Dunn 13:38

So in hiding your stutter, did you feel like people would not have accepted you as much with a stutter, or was it more about you not accepting yourself?

Vikesh 13:48

It it's it's probably a combination of both, but but I think the fear of of judgment was the first thing. Uh, especially as I entered the the the workforce, and you know, I I really wanted to strive and move up the ladder and do all these things. And I was afraid that if my employers, if my colleagues found out that I had a stutter, that I would be treated differently, right? That they wouldn't provide me the opportunities that they were a fluent person. Um, they may think less of me. Um, so so so all those thoughts went through my mind. And of course, I wasn't accepting of my stutter at that time. Um, and and that that that that was also a challenge.

James Dunn 14:36

And through those teenage years and early adult years, when you were still, as you say, being a secret agent of sorts, did you still speak less than you think you otherwise would have because of that?

Vikesh 14:48

Like you said, when you were a child, you you didn't speak as much, but did that continue on into later years or I think as I became um older and you know, I guess in in university and beyond, I just became smarter. And so my vocabulary became broader. So I think I was more social than I was in primary school and high school. Um but uh and if it makes sense, like cautiously social, right? So I would choose the interactions of of which I decided to go, right? And and I think social environments, like I found it easier to present to a hundred people because that was structured words that I knew. I found it more challenging to go to a meal with friends because then you don't know what the next question is gonna be. Yeah, so and you know, and I went, but I was I was always very cautious, right? Um, I'll give you another example of that cautiousness is I typically ordered what was easier to say, right? So I ordered my meal based, and this is not uncommon, by the way. There are many people who stutter around the world, if they're listening to this, could probably relate. So going, there are many times that I wanted to order one thing, and I got up to the counter and I said, That's probably not gonna come out fluently. I'm gonna order something else. And then you you and then you know, you can just this is where I I I get emotional thinking about this, but you can imagine like I'm I'm eating a meal that I don't even want because of fear of judgment from a worker at a a place that I may never even see again, right? And that like yeah, it's um it's it's it's it's it's powerful.

James Dunn 16:44

Yeah, absolutely. And that level of adjustment is huge, right? Like that that you're going to to not put yourself in that situation where you have the starter and have to explain that. Did you feel some form of grief from constantly having to kind of edit yourself like that?

Vikesh 16:59

Um I I don't know if I felt grief. I I genuinely felt that I was speaking the wrong way. Yeah. And and I felt that I had to make things right to fit into this fluent society that I lived in. Um and so it wasn't grief, it was more of shame. Guilt. Okay. Why me? You know, why am I the only one that that that speaks like this in the whole world? Um, embarrassment, you know. Um, and and the guilt parts is interesting, right? Because I felt guilty that people may have to wait a few extra seconds for me to finish my thought.

James Dunn 17:37

Yeah. Were there any people around you for whom you didn't feel you had to hide the stutter? Or was it everybody in your life in those sort of teenage and early adult years?

Vikesh 17:46

It was everybody.

James Dunn 17:47

Um Yeah, it was Full secret agent.

Vikesh 17:50

There was not not even my not even my family. I I just I just convinced myself that this is not stuttering and I'm just going to change my words and not stutter.

James Dunn 18:02

Aaron Powell And what level of um I guess that that vigilance what that you had to have, what impact did that have on your nervous system over over time?

Vikesh 18:11

Yeah, I think it definitely increased my anxiety because I had this I was on a constant high, right? I was I was constantly elevated um 24-7. And um and it was exhausting, right? It it was it was definitely exhausting. And um yeah, I don't I some of and some of my sort of earlier e even childhoods are are sort of blanks in my memory because I actually don't remember like you know, I think my brain had decided just to block out some of those memories as as well.

James Dunn 18:50

Yeah. So they were the teenage years and and early adult years, but how old were you when you decided to not hide your stutter anymore? And did something happen at that time of your life that that led you to that decision?

Vikesh 19:04

Yeah, so I was 28 years old

Vikesh 19:08

and I had lost my um one of my first tech jobs that I had been in for six years. So I had built a level of confidence in the company and in myself, and even though I was still covert, I still was you know have was gaining confidence in in myself. And I it was it was a company-wide um reduction in force. So it wasn't just me, it was like the majority of our office. Um and my speech really went back to pre-high school days. It really went from covert to overt. I was struggling to even to hide it anymore. Um, and and that's when I I reached out to a friend from uni who I knew was studying to be a speechy at the time. And they said, Have you heard of the the NSA? And no, this is not the national uh security agency, it's the National Stuttering Association in the US. And at the age of 28 years old, I actually went to my first stuttering support group meeting uh at the end of 2001, and that was the first time I had ever not only met other people who stuttered, but really spoke about my stuttering and spoke that was the first time I spoke without fear. Wow. Probably ever.

James Dunn 20:34

What was scary about that first time about making a stutter visible?

Vikesh 20:39

Um I I'll be honest, I didn't know if I belonged there, right? Some people's this disfluencies were a lot more apparent than mine. And because I was still in the covert over stage, I was, you know, I could sort of get by. And then I thought, is this do I belong here? Am I a person who stutters? Am I what do I do? Um but yeah, it was but it was it was a light bulb moment for me, right? Because prior to then I had thought, I'm the only person in the world that speaks like this. Um and and it was unbelievable, right? I uh I guess from an excitement perspective, yeah. They all had similar stories, right? Similar stories of the food or ordering something else, of drive-throughs, and just all similar experiences. And so that was yeah, uh like I think it it changed my life. Wow. That's awesome.

James Dunn 21:39

And did you feel that was the same for other people there? You said that they had other conditions or maybe more severe forms, but did you sense it was life changing for some of those people too?

Vikesh 21:47

Um, I mean uh I would think so. I mean, people I generally saw the the same people coming back uh usually e every month for for the meetings. Um so I think there's something to be said about when you find your like-minded community, your tribe. Um, you know, and when it comes to stuttering, and I I could tell you when I meet someone who stutters, we have this immediate connection, right? And it transcends anything else, right? Race, ethnicity, views, points around the world, it doesn't matter, right? Because we both have experienced life with this unique perspective and viewpoint, and unfortunately, probably bad experiences, but it it's that bond, right? And and it's it's hard to explain to someone who doesn't stutter what it's actually like to be in that moment of flight or fight, or you know, that tension, the block, the everything. But when you meet someone who stutters, you're like, it's like, you know, shoulders down, and I have I have nothing to hide anymore. Yeah, good question. I um so it was definitely a journey, right? And I say, I mean, that was 2001, and we're in 2026. So for 25 years, it's been a journey, right? And for some people who stutter, the journey goes longer, and for some people, the journey is shorter, and they immediately click and they f figure it all out, right? Um, for me, I could tell you, for the first six months, on the first Wednesday evening of every month, I lied to my roommate and I told him I was going to the Barnes and Nobles bookstore. Um, and then eventually, six months and six months of meetings, and I was like, okay, I gotta, you know, I'm trying to get this acceptance thing going, but this isn't good, right? Like I'm going through these meetings and I feel great, but I'm lying to one of my best friends and roommates, right? Of where I'm going. So I after six months, I said, Oh, I gotta tell you something. So, you know, on like the first Wednesday, I I go to the Bars of the Nobles, I was like, I'm imagining I go to a bookstore, I'm going to a

Coming Out About Stuttering At Home And Work

Vikesh 24:28

support group meeting for people who stutter. And this is also where I get emotional because his question, his response was very interesting. He's like, Why'd you lie? I said, Because I have a stutter. And he said, He said, But I've always known you stuttered. So why'd you lie? And it it was uh it was profound, right? Because here I thought that I was the best secret agent in the world. And the more people I told, the more I realized that I would never get a job at the CIA because I had failed, right? I had failed in the sense that everyone that I came out to, and that was my best friend and roommate, then I um I actually spoke to my mom, who I didn't realize at the time, had felt guilty that she was the cause of my stutter because my parents are separated, and and she thought that's why I stuttered. So she had had carried all this guilt until that that moment that I spoke to her, like, hey, by the way, I've been going to support groups, and you know, I stutter, and she's like, and so that was uh that was an amazing moment to be able to tell her it's not your fault, it's just the way I'm wired. But the more people I told, uh, I spoke to my brother, he obviously already knew. Um, and then I spoke to people at work eventually, again, like a few years later, and they said, Yeah, I I I remember going into my boss's office, and this is when the King's speech had won the Oscars. And I said, I went in, I was like, Oh, do you have a minute? Said, Yeah, you know, the king and I have something in common. No, it's not that, you know, I'm royalty, it's that we both have a stutter. And he and he said, Yeah, uh, I know. Is there anything I can help you with? I was like, You you already know? Yeah, yeah, I've I've I've always known. He said, Oh, oh, can I tell my boss, my vice president? Yep, you can tell him. Told him, yep, I know. Is there anything else I can help you with? I don't tell you, and so the more people I told, I was like, I'm I'm really a bad secret agent, but but no one cared. Yeah, no one ever cared. Um no one ever brought it up because I never brought it up, right? And it was like, well, if I'm not comfortable talking about it, they weren't gonna bring it up. Um but it was it was amazing, right? I I I don't even know how to explain it. Just the more people I told, the less self-conscious I became, the less I cared about what people thought, the more I just said, you know what, it's okay to have a stutter and say what you want to say, regardless of how the words come out.

James Dunn 27:14

That's awesome that you felt that all those people that were in your life did accept it. And a lot of them already knew it. Um as you said that you know makes you uh not not the secret agent you thought you were, but um, it would have been nice to to to know that they knew it and you know accepted you through all those years, even if it was so challenging, it was so challenging for all those years. But it would have been nice to reflect on that knowing that they were so supportive.

Vikesh 27:38

Yeah, no, it was it was an un it was a it was a very amazing experience, I think that that whole part of my journey. Uh I I I remember going to my one one of my first conferences for people who stutter, and that was around 2004-2005, and so about 600 people at the conference. And the interesting part about a stuttering conference is that we become the 99% and fluent people become the 1%. And I can't even explain it. Right? It's just I was like, wait, this is so it was that support group meeting amplified on such a scale that I can't even explain. And I met people from all walks of life at these conferences, right? People um were lawyers and judges and this, and and and and because I I really thought, you know, am I limited to what I can do? And then you go to these conferences and you meet people from all around the world that are doing what they want, irrespective of their stutter.

James Dunn 28:47

That must have been incredibly uplifting to be around a full room, as you say, of people who are stuttering in the f fluent people, the old ones out.

Vikesh 28:59

I haven't been to a conference in a few years, and I am looking forward to trying to get to one soon.

James Dunn 29:07

Absolutely. So obviously there were a lot of challenges with this through your childhood, teenage years, early adult years, and I'm sure still to this day. But do you think that your starter has shaped your personality in positive ways as well?

Vikesh 29:22

I think it has made me a great listener. Yep. Um, because for a lot of times I just listened. I I I I I didn't speak my mind. And I and I know while that sounds bad, I I think it has uh allowed me to become a great listener. It has, I think, allowed me to be more is the word empathetic, but I'm I'm I'm more accepting of anyone that has a difference. Because if the whole world was the same, how boring would it be? Right? Like we we are all unique and we all have something to contribute. And and and and I think I am the person I am because of my stutter.

James Dunn 30:05

So your interest in other people who are different uh is probably a good segue into your advocacy work. So when did you go beyond

Advocacy Work And Building Confidence

James Dunn 30:13

that point of being comfortable with your stutter to then being really open about it and actually advocating for others?

Vikesh 30:20

Yeah, so there was um as but anything, there's always ups and downs. So there was a a moment in time, it was I could tell you the exact day probably, which is not which which is so impactful that it affected me. Uh but December 2012 was when uh we were were moving from Toronto, Canada to Brisbane, Australia, and the moving company came and the it was early in the morning, I opened the door, and the person introduced themselves, and I said, I'm the Vikesh. And and I studied on my name. By the way, I still stutter on my name today, it's just the way I'm wired. So I stuttered on my name, and the person said, which I I think is the worst question in the world, did you forget your name? And in that moment, even though, again, this is 2012, right? I had gone to my first work remaining in 2001, I had been to some conferences, so I thought I was fairly acceptance of my stutter, and I lied. I said, No, I'm just tired. And it was that moment, and then I arrived at Australia, and I'm like, why did I lie to someone that I'm never gonna see again? Right. So I still, even though I was along this road of acceptance, I still had this fear, and that's when I I realized that I also need to build confidence in in myself as a person, as a human. And so I I really went down the the path of building confidence, and I've done things like join Toastmasters along the way. Um, you know, my physical health became a lot more important to me because, you know, the better I felt about myself, the more confident I could feel. And then and then uh it was around that time that I I decided, you know what, I also want to um share what I'm I'm I'm learning and my journey. So I so so I actually started to become a presenter at some of these same conferences that I had been attending over the years as an attendee and share some of that story and and journey as well.

James Dunn 32:30

That's great. So it sounds like it is like a lot of people with um some kind of health condition or or challenge, I guess, of any kind, it can often be a long journey. And it was a bit of a two steps forward, one step back type journey for you. And that experience with with the removalist must have really hit you because I mean it seems like a completely nonsensical response from that person. And I can see how that would have you know really hit you hard. And I guess you have those knocks along the way, but you keep pushing forward. And you and you've done your advocacy, which is great. It sounds like your advocacy and your acceptance of the stutter are kind of intertwined, like it's not like you fully accepted yourself before you did the advocacy. The advocacy is helping you with the continued acceptance. Is that right? Are they sort of intertwined?

Vikesh 33:15

Yeah, that's a that's that's an i interesting statement. Yeah, I I would agree, right? The more I speak about stuttering, the more I meet other people who stutter through, you know, uh through Australian Stuttering Association, um, also not stutter, the the the more I do that, I always feel better, right? Because I don't think I can just sit back and relax, right? I think I I I have a voice, right? And for a long time I didn't use it, right? I I I I tell people because some people will tell you I I speak too much. And I'll say yes, because I have a lot of time to make up for, right? Because for a lot of my life, I didn't speak my mind.

Speaker 2 34:03

Yeah.

Vikesh 34:03

And I think if I have a voice and and an opportunity um to help others along the way, why wouldn't I?

James Dunn 34:12

Absolutely. So, what sort of work are you doing with Stutter to help people?

Vikesh 34:18

So I started Stutter with a few other people that that helped me um almost three years ago now. And the main thing we do is that we have a monthly online um chat and it's called Speak Freely. And as the the word implies, as the words imply, uh, people who stutter can join and speak as they want, right? Some people are joining because they really want to practice some sort of um speech therapy technique that they're working on. That's completely fine. Some people join and just want to speak as they are, that's completely fine. And some people join and do a hybrid of both, right? Um, so for for us, it's a judgment-free zone. Um, and we don't necessarily even talk about stuttering the whole time, right? It's just it's just an opportunity for one hour, and it used to be once a month, and now we've increased it this year to twice a month. Um, and it's just an opportunity to build that community, meet other people without any pressures that they may feel and we may feel in our day-to-day lives, right? So we can just talk without fear of like, am I gonna be judged? Should I change my words? No, just come as you are, and um and I think it's yeah, it's it's been a it's been a great journey.

James Dunn 35:40

Absolutely. And it sounds like that would be an incredibly positive environment for people and would be uplifting and people would leave with confidence.

Vikesh 35:47

Yeah, and and that really is one of my main sort of goals and messages is to help people build confidence in themselves, right? Because I I I think stuttering is too unique to have like a one size fits all as it relates to therapy if someone wanted it, right? So I I always tell people like you you have to try to build confidence in yourself, and that that may involve speech modification tools. It it may not, right? It's just you know, get to a point in your life where you you're ordering the food you want to order, you're saying what you want to say without fear of that judgment.

James Dunn 36:26

Yeah, that's great. And I do think that those forums are so beneficial for so many different types of um challenges that people have in life because you can hear what other people do. Because as you said, for for a lot of conditions, there isn't a one size fits all. Probably probably none. So hearing other people's experiences, you can take those elements of what you think might work for you. And it sounds like that works really well um for stuttering.

Vikesh 36:52

No, it it it definitely does. And and people can come with specific questions of, you know, I I I had this or what should I do? I'm I'm I'm practicing for a job interview, for example. That's that's quite common. Job interviews are always a stressful situation for anyone. Yeah. And if you have a stutter, then that just sort of amplifies it a bit more as well.

James Dunn 37:14

Yeah. So connecting to the sunflower, how has wearing the sunflower helped you?

Vikesh 37:21

So I um I'll start off by

Vikesh 37:24

saying that I I learned about the Hidden Disability Sunflower probably recently in the last couple of years. And so at the University of Queensland at UQ, there was a morning tea um about the Hidden Hidden Disability Sunflower that was organized by someone else. And I went to the morning tea and I was immediately drawn to the similarities that I and stuttering uh has and had with other uh hidden disabilities. Um, and I immediately I I I couldn't believe that one, I had never heard of it, but as soon as I heard of it, I'm like, this is an amazing opportunity to um help the broader sense, right? So including people who stutter, but just um so many people with hidden disabilities. And and I think from my perspective, what it brings to me is confidence. Like I'm pretty confident, but it just adds to my confidence because wearing the the lanyard around my workplace uh is an indication that hey I have uh a hidden disability. This interaction may take slightly longer, but all you need to do is wait. Right? And and and I think um so many people also ask, hey, what does this mean? So it's it's an opportunity for awareness as well. Um, we as the as as UQ are a member of the Hidden Space Sunflower program, but um because I hadn't heard about it back then, I'm like, hey, how do we bring more awareness? Like I never even knew. What would so I I spoke to a few people and fast forward after a student staff partnership where we engage with um two other colleagues and four students, and the students did most of the work. Um, and then we launched, we've sort of had an official launch on on all of our campuses and uh almost all of our digital screens now have uh an image that was approved by uh both brand teams, UQ brand as well as Hidden Disabilities brand team. Um and it just shows that we are um a member and we are a community that is accepting. And I think the most powerful place that I've seen the screen is at Student Central here on our main campus. Um, because Student Central, even though the word says Student Central, everyone that needs to get, like every staff member even that needs to get a staff ID has to go to Student Central. So anyone who starts as a student has to go to Student Central. So we're talking, you know, I think we're at 59,000 students and 15,000 staff, like it's a large cohort of people that are experiencing the sign and experiencing this this opportunity. Imagine coming to a campus and and and if if you already know about the hidden disability sunflower, and then you see that image, you're like, I've come to a place that will accept me for who I am.

James Dunn 40:38

Yeah, that is fantastic. It sounds like it is a really inclusive community there at the university, which must make going to work a lot easier and and enjoyable. And I can definitely r relate to your experience with first coming across the sunflower. I sort of didn't know it, and then I sort of saw it kind of everywhere and and it it really resonated with me because it's so simple. It's just that conversation starter and it just helps people to feel comfortable. And it's great that you've experienced that. And I can see how people with a starter would definitely benefit from it because, like you said, it just allows a little bit more time and for people to be a little bit more curious, I guess, which is helpful.

Vikesh 41:18

Exactly. And you know, I have I've I've certainly noticed more and more people are wearing the sunflower lanyard around campus. I I was going for a coffee yesterday and and I saw a couple other people that had it on. Um, I think, and you know, hopefully I've helped with also trying to build build confidence in some of these people as well, right? So I've organized, so after after that morning tea, I said I'm gonna organize the morning teas in the buildings that I support as well. And and and and I remember um we've had people that have initially asked for a bracelet, you know, um, uh, or the sorry, the the armband. Is this what's called armband? And um, and then they've come back sort of a couple of months later like, okay, I'm ready now for the for the lanyard, right? So they have in themselves built up the confidence saying, you know what, I I I had this on my arm, but I'm ready now for the for the for the lanyard. And that's that's amazing to see that growth just within our own community.

James Dunn 42:20

Yeah, that's that's great. And it sounds like because you're now sort of going beyond just your starter community in terms of your support and advocacy to to everyone with non-visible disabilities, you can probably sense that a lot of people have also been a secret agent in their lives, either their whole life or for parts of their lives. So that's an experience you could relate to.

Vikesh 42:40

Yeah, for for uh definitely, definitely. I mean, the the fact that there's over 800 hidden disabilities on the hidden disabilities website will just show you the breadth of how wide this goes. And yeah, there there are people that have come to these morning tees and these the these morning tees, I mean, I call them a morning tea. They're really like a support group meeting, right? Because people will come and share things like that they have never shared before. Um, and then what's what's also amazing is that we have you know, leadership people will come, group leaders, directors that are really interested in in some cases, also sharing their hidden disabilities, which you know that the higher you go, I think they always feel like I don't know if I can. So, so that's been I think very amazing and and um and and I appreciate them for doing that. But then also other people come and um with their employees and just really wanting to learn. I, you know, I don't have a hidden disability, and they've told me, but I've come to learn how can I support this person that does, or this staff member or my team. And and that's amazing as well, right? Is that we also have people not only wearing the green lanyards, but we have also people wearing the white lanyards indicating that, hey. Hey, you know what? I don't have a hidden disability, but I uh understand and appreciate and support people with hidden disabilities.

James Dunn 44:07

Absolutely. I mean, the the success of the initiative relies on the continued growth of those people who are the supporters um who are aware of the initiative because they're the ones who are often going to be providing the help. So the work you're doing there is great too, um particularly at UQ. Um so just coming back to your situation with the um stutter and how people might be able to help. So what are some of the most helpful and least helpful ways that people respond to you when when you stutter?

Vikesh 44:36

I'm gonna tell you the number one tip. And I'm gonna tell you your listeners the number one tip. And as much as you may think you're being helpful,

Practical Etiquette And Organisation Actions

Vikesh 44:45

please don't finish our sentences. Please, please, please do not finish our sentences. And I'm gonna sort of give an example of I can see the intention why. Right? If I see someone that is at a crosswalk and I think they may need assistance to cross the street, right? So I can go by, hey, would you like me to help you? So they can either respond with, get away from me, you creep, or they can say, Yes, I appreciate the assistance. So I think the intention of completing our sentences is always genuine, right? I don't think people are trying to be rude. I think they see someone who is either struggling, stumbling, or they're trying to think of what they want to say. Let me help them out. Right. And in our case, it's very demoralizing, it's very deflating um to have that happen to us, right? So I think for for me, please don't finish our sentences, right? And just give us the time to to finish. I I think that's that's probably the number one tip I can give.

James Dunn 45:53

That is a fantastic tip, Vagesh. And I think when people hear that, I'm sure they will do that. And as you say, um people probably do have good intentions, um, but when you know the impact it has on someone and it is demoralizing, as you say, then you know, people won't do that. And so hopefully everyone listening will take that on board. I I certainly have. So in addition to those examples you've already provided, our final question is always around change and what's one small change that individuals or organizations could make tomorrow to improve the lives of people with a stutter or any other life-changing non-visible illness or health condition?

Vikesh 46:31

I'm gonna say um probably two things. I know I I know you said say one, but I'm a rule breaker. So uh one is if your organization hasn't heard about the Hidden Disabilities initiative, uh sign up. Right? Like it's not like in the big scheme of things, it's not that much money. Um and and and and I think number two is you know, it's it's one thing to talk about being inclusive. To me, you can really show that, right? You can really uh empower people by bringing awareness of something like hidden disabilities, right? I you know, I think I mentioned earlier, like the challenge with hidden disabilities, and I love the tagline, right? Making the invisible visible, right? Is that you know people aren't going to immediately come out and share their vulnerability if they don't feel confident that leadership is on board to accept that, right? So it's a two-way street. Uh so I would encourage organizations um to really show that support, inclusiveness from the top down, right? It's not gonna start from the bottom. No one's gonna walk in with a lanyard um and and and you know, hope and hope that everything is fine, right? They're you know, I I have a level of confidence, so I have worn it around, and I know that my leadership have been extremely supportive of my initiatives, right? But I've also met colleagues who haven't been as comfortable or confident, right? And that's where I have challenged sort of leaders within the university, going, hey, I know you, you know, we talk a good game about being inclusive. Did you know that you have people in your team that aren't really feeling that that comfortable, right? So it's I think it's an opportunity um to really show that, right? Lead by example.

James Dunn 48:30

Absolutely. I think you're right. The leadership in an organization is incredibly important to setting the tone and seeing the culture and through that, the level of um inclusiveness in an organization. So I think we're getting a lot of organizations joining the initiative, which is fantastic, and their leadership is on board, and it just makes it so much easier for everyone else if you're in a in an organization where everyone understands and is on board, which is great. Okay, it's been fantastic to chat with you today. Um, it's been really interesting. I've certainly learned a lot about um stuttering and what it's like to to live with a stutter, and it's been really uplifting too. You've you've got so many positive stories, um, which I'm sure our listeners have loved listening to. And thank you also for the work that you're doing, both in your stuttering community. It sounds like that's making a really big difference to people, but also with the Sunfire and the broader uh inclusive initiative that the Sunfire is. Sounds like the University of Queensland is a really uplifting, inclusive place to work, and you've been a big part of that. So thank you so much and and all the best.

Vikesh 49:33

Thank you very much, James, and thanks, thanks again for the opportunity, right? I I truly believe that um we have to advocate and educate. It's not going to happen on its own, right? It's it's just not, right? So as as as a community, it's it's it's on us. So thank you for um allowing me this time and and and space as well to speak.

James Dunn 49:57

Thank you for joining us for another Sunflower Conversation. Please keep the conversation going via our website, hdsunflower.com forward slash AU,

Closing And How To Connect

James Dunn 50:06

on Facebook at Hidden DisabilitiesANZ, on Instagram at hidden disabilities underscore ANZ, and on LinkedIn at Hidden Disabilities Sunflower-Australia and New Zealand. You can also visit our website if your organisation or an organisation you know is interested in becoming a Sunflower member. If you would like to submit a question for one of our guests to answer on a future episode, please direct message us on socials or email us at hds events at Bailey House. That's B-A-Y-L-E-Y-H-O-U-S E.org.au. Please help, have patience, show kindness to others, and join us again soon, making the invisible visible with the Hidden Disability Sunflower.