Welcome And Guest Introduction

James Dunn 0:10

We acknowledge and pay our respects to the traditional custodians of the lands on which we record, and especially to those who may also be living with a disability. Welcome to another episode of the Sunflower Conversations, where we will explore a variety of non-visible disabilities, the way in which people experience their disabilities, and discover the opportunities for society to make access and inclusion improvements that benefit everyone. Hi everyone, my name is James Dunn, and I am your host. And like many of the guests on the Sunflower Conversations, I also live with disability, including myalgic encephalomyelitis, more commonly known as chronic fatigue syndrome, and postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome. On today's show, I'm joined by Mel Ogden. Mel was born and raised in Adelaide on Ghana Country. She has worked in contract and procurement management for over 25 years, both in Australia and around the world, for large, national and multinational companies. At the age of three, Mel was diagnosed with a bilateral, severe to profound hearing loss and has worn hearing aids ever since. As well as having profound hearing loss, Mel has faced other non-visible chronic illnesses, including endometriosis, Himoto's disease, and more recently, breast cancer. Today we're going to speak about Mel's journey with disability and how these experiences have shaped her and led her to today, which supports organizations to be more inclusive of people with disabilities. Mel Ogden, welcome to the show.

Mel Ogden 1:49

Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here.

James Dunn 1:53

So, what was your experience growing up with profound hearing loss, including the challenges you faced and the impact your condition had on your identity when going through primary and high school, particularly during a time when awareness and available supports were presumably not as advanced as they are today?

Mel Ogden 2:12

I think my experience has been different to many people. And I think a lot of it was in my family. I was the first person to be diagnosed as having a hearing loss. So it was all new in my family. And so the supports had to be sought out. They weren't anything that was already existing, as might have been the case in families that had deaf people in it. So I was lucky that there were government supports in place. So the government provided me with my hearing aids. I had uh what was called a visiting teacher, and um she would come and sit with me at school and um help me understand what the lessons were. If I didn't understand what they were, talk to me about the equipment that I had to use at school. And um I guess in some sort of ways I was already different from the other kids from wearing hearing aids, but I also had large equipment that I had to wear on my chest. And that equipment was a radio frequency receiver, and then my teacher would wear the transmitter on their chest as well, which had the microphone on it, and the receiver would attach to my hearing aid, and what would happen would be that I could only hear what the teacher said, which is great if that was the only thing that happened in classrooms. But um I'm guessing most kids at school had the same experiences as me, where if the teacher asked a question, people put their hands up and multiple people might answer it depending on the type of question it was. And in my case, what that meant was I often didn't hear what the other kids said, which meant I could have repeated what they said because I didn't know they'd already said that answer. Or um I just completely missed what the conversation was about because I didn't hear the half that wasn't being transmitted through the teacher's microphone. So I think that from my perspective made me feel quite left out. Um not a hundred percent left out, but you know, different obviously. And so by the time I got to high school, I really didn't want to feel different and I didn't want to look different, and I just wanted to fit in with everyone else. So I stopped using that radio frequency equipment and um you know, did my best to hide it, and I think I did all right and then I think I got away with it. However, I wonder how much better I might have done at high school if if I hadn't hidden it.

James Dunn 4:51

Yeah, it sounds like that would have been really isolating at times to to have um that sort of experience. Did the other kids at school, how did they kind of relate to it? What what do you think their understanding was of your situation?

Mel Ogden 5:07

I don't actually know. And when I think about it, I think when you're a child, your whole world is just you, so you don't always think about what other people think. I haven't had conversations with other children about, you know, how I was different. Um, I do recall my grandmother telling me a story when she picked me up from kindergarten and um another boy was getting picked up by his mother, and his mother said, Oh, you shouldn't play with that little girl, she's an alien, she's got things in her ears. And my grandmother just turned around and said, Well, your son's wearing glasses, so what's the difference? And I think because I had those sort of role models in my life, I sort of went, Well, I'm actually not much different from anyone else. I just need some equipment to help me get along and do what everyone else does. So I think that would be and I always have friends. I don't think I felt completely isolated. So I was lucky there were always kind and compassionate people around me as well.

James Dunn 6:05

Yeah, that's great. That story about your grandmother's wonderful that she was so supportive and and stood up for you. I can see why you you remember that one. How do you find group settings like you know, restaurants or sort of being at parties and and that type of thing? Is that harder or how does that work?

Mel Ogden 6:23

It might be strange in this answer. I think sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad. So in very loud environments where I'm around a table in a restaurant or um a pub or good old days in the nightclub, um, I did all right because so long as I can see people's faces, I can read their lips, which means that I can get the message quite a lot easier than other people. And most recently I was at a networking function and it was really, really loud, and I was doing all right with the conversations, but everyone else is going, oh, I don't know how you're creeping. I'm like, well, why? So I think in that respect, it is an advantage being able to repree. But when you're in, say, a group meeting and you're around a large table, or you have multiple participants and you're around the table and some people on screen, I've really found that difficult. I need to see people's faces when they're talking. And sometimes, you know, if you don't get into the meeting room early enough, you can't get the ideal seat. Or, you know, um, in some organizations, there's a hierarchy, so you can't get the seat that you need because that's saved for the important person who also needs to see everyone. Um, but yeah, it has its challenges, but I think when I do explain to people the reason I need to have better visibility or closed captions or anything like that in a workplace, then that understanding comes into play, and people generally do their best to help um accommodate what I need.

James Dunn 7:59

And you feel pretty comfortable most of the time asking in that sort of situation to be in a position where you can see everyone, or are there still some times when you you you just don't feel comfortable saying anything?

Mel Ogden 8:10

I'm getting better at it. I I absolutely spent decades hiding it and trying to get away with it, and then just trying to hatch together bits of the communication that I've managed to capture. But now I have meme into my time of owning it, and I think because of that I am more comfortable asking for it. I do catch myself out sometimes, and I do wonder afterwards why that situation didn't allow me to do that, or why I didn't allow myself to do that in that situation. But I think it's one of those things that you kind of have to own up so that you can have those conversations, and it's a lot easier with people that you know, and a lot easier with people that you don't know at all, and then there's that little group in the middle where either you want to impress them or you don't know them very well, and you're you've heard that they may not be accepting, or something like that. And I think that's probably when I go back into that old routine of, well, I'll just make do with what I have.

James Dunn 9:24

Yeah, I can absolutely relate to that. It's not a sort of linear kind of progression, is it, with that being comfortable? I I find myself that I'll be really comfortable asking in my case to sort of sit down in certain situations most of the time, but then something will happen and I just don't feel comfortable asking. And then like you just said, I kind of reflect on it afterwards and think, why didn't I speak up and ask for that seat? And you sort of learn from that, and then if that situation arises again, you you feel a bit more comfortable. But it can be challenging. Absolutely, I agree. So in addition to the challenge of living with profound hearing loss, you have also had uh endometriosis from the age of 15, Hashimoto's disease from when you were pregnant with your first child and then received a breast cancer diagnosis in 2022. So it would be great if you could help our podcast community to understand a little bit more about each of these health conditions and the challenges that you face from each condition, but also the interaction and the combined impact of them.

Mel Ogden 10:29

Yes, very happy to share that. So I'll start with endometriosis. That is a disease that affects your uterus or pretty much your female reproductive system. And um, the main symptoms that you get are chronic pain, a very, very painful period. And then um over time I ended up getting something called adenamiosis, which is kind of like a systolic to endometriosis, which then means it grows within the lining of your uterus and creates really heavy bleeding. So um what I always struggled with was we got 10 sick days a year, but you got 12 to 13 periods a year, and I never had enough sickly to not go to work on the worst day of my period. So there were days where I just had to drug myself up, pack in a whole bunch of supplies, and just get myself to the office. And I think that whole hiding my deafness probably gave me some great training for hiding that chronic illness as well. And I think being a female reproductive illness, it was certainly something that um, you know, I wasn't willing to talk to anyone about. Um, you know, here I am in 2026 talking to a male about it. Uh, you know, if you told me that I would have been having this conversation in 2006 or in 1996, I would have just bulked at the whole thing, you know. I I told my close circle of friends, um, clearly I told my boyfriend and husband, but you know, it really wasn't something I shared with workmates, and I did my best to get away with it. I do remember at one workplace I was having a particularly bad day, and I managed to get myself into the office, and I was about to take my mix of high-dose medication, and um one of my workmates' husbands walked past me and said, Oh, you're all right, you're really not looking good. And I just must got a bad headache and kept walking, and I was just, I really didn't want to share. Um, so that one really did have a huge impact on my life. I used to manage my time around that time of the month. Okay. So if there was a major event at that time of the month, and one situation I can absolutely remember was university graduation, fell in that week. So I just didn't go. Uh, it would have been nice to go to my graduation ceremony, but I didn't think I was going to be able to sit there for as long. You know, once they've set you up in the order you have to be in so that you can go and collect your certificate. Can't really duck out and go to the loo halfway through. So I missed out on that event because I managed my life around that. Um, and it got to the point that after my son was born, I was having such heavy bleeding that I couldn't leave the house for days. Uh, because if I left the house, uh I'd have to take complete change of the clothes with me. It was getting that bad. And so when I went to see my specialist, I said, look, you know, I've got a choice. And it's either can I be a good mum or live with Mr. B. And I thought I just want to be a good mum. I want to actually be able to do things with my son and not have to always stay around home. And I was very fortunate, and she agreed that the only action that I could take was the hysterectomy, and it was the best decision that I'd made. I woke up after that operation and I felt lighter, I felt better. And I know it's not the outcome for everyone, but certainly for me, after 20 odd years of living with it, I'm so pleased to get rid of it. Perhaps disease number one. Um, disease number two. U Hashimoto um is a condition for the thyroid. And what it does is it stops my thyroid from working properly. And if you don't treat it, that means that my heart rate goes down, I can you know gain a lot of weight. Um, so it's really a high prototyroidism, so low thyroidism. Um and it affects uh generally a lot more fatigue than people get. And for me, it's been a bit difficult to understand which activity or which um chronic illness I have actually drives my fatigue because there's too many choices, right? But um if I don't take the medications or be Hashimoto's, I definitely start feeling tired. I definitely start feeling like I um don't have the ability to keep up with things. The weight gain's a good fun one, like it doesn't seem to matter what I do. I can't seem to do anything to influence that greatly. It's probably a very quiet and hidden disease that not many people have heard about. And I think it's one of those ones that you've got to manage constantly and keep up your blood test up to date so that you know that you're on top of it, because once your thyroid starts changing again, then you need to get onto the medication quicker. So it's um it's an interesting one because it just sort of suddenly appeared with no signs or warnings, um, and not in my family, so I don't know how I got it. And you know, whereas endometriosis was in the family, so I already had a label for it. I could go to the doctors and say, you know, this is in the family, this is why I think I have it before I got fully diagnosed. Hashimoto's was not something that anyone in my family's ever spoken about.

James Dunn 16:41

I know of people with Hashimoto's and um it does seem like it it can be really energy sapping. Do you find that the medication largely manages that, or even when you have that all the time, it can still cause issues?

Mel Ogden 16:54

I think it's more about boundaries, which I imagine you are learning as well with your condition, and really you uh going, okay, well, what I used to be able to do and how I recovered from that is not how it works anymore. So if I want to go and party for five hours, is it worth the two days of recovery? Or do I go and I'm going to party for one hour and still get my little extrovert hit, but not pay the price with fatigue?

James Dunn 17:30

Yeah, absolutely.

Mel Ogden 17:31

And and sleep. I think that's important. Yeah.

James Dunn 17:35

So with the endometriosis, because it was in the family, did you feel sort of well supported by doctors, or did you sort of have to push for answers on that?

Mel Ogden 17:45

I still had to push, but I think my um pushing was validated because I could say that a family member very close to me did have it and did have to have radical treatment for it. And I think because I knew what their symptoms were and what they went through, I could use the same language to describe my symptoms and to talk with the doctors about it. I think all with endometriosis, it really is finding the right specialist that works for you. And I did have to move through specialists a couple of times, either, you know, their personalities weren't working with me. Um, it's very difficult to talk about a female reproductive problem with a male doctor who just goes, oh, well, that's just the way it is. And you're sort of like, well, how would you know it? You know, you don't actually experience any of this sort of stuff. You don't have the body parts to do that. Um, so I think that, you know, being able to have those conversations, and I guess that normalized version of talking about it through having family members that had it does make it easier. But you know, it really wasn't acknowledged as a disease for so long. And I would still go and see doctors and put it down on my list of you know things that might need to be managed. And I remember when I met my obstetrician, I, you know, wrote down I've got endometriosis and adenomiosis. And she's like, oh, why do you say that? I thought, well, because I've been diagnosed, I've had several zuries for it. And she's like, well, who's your specialist? And I gave her the name. She goes, Oh, well, if she says you have it, then you must have it. And I just thought it back there and went, wow, like, why couldn't you believe me? Why that has to be validated by someone who is a leader in Adelaide in that space, but still, you know, I it's just really, I guess, shook me that I still have to validate some of this stuff. Um, and you still have to get an expert to prove it.

James Dunn 20:08

Yeah, that's really challenging. I mean, you go and see medical professionals because you have faith that they're going to believe you. But that it's in their world, so they're going to understand what you're going through and to still have to push and, as you say, validate what you have. That is uh you know really challenging. And I think i i I mean the condition that the endometriosis for people who aren't that familiar with it as I'm not, the impact on people can be really significant in what you've described there, with um you know missing so much work, missing really important life events constantly in pain uh is probably more than um people would think if they haven't um either had it or not familiar with it. So it's great they've been able to share that.

Mel Ogden 20:50

I'm very happy to share that. And I think it's one of these things we just need to talk about it more so that people acknowledge that it's there and perhaps want to learn and understand just a little bit more about what people are going through, which is probably a good segue into breast cancer, really, because I think breast cancer is a cancer that people are aware of, and certainly don't think I've jinxed myself, but I do remember thinking if I ever got a cancer, that would be the one that I want to get because it's well known, well researched, everyone talks about it. I think it's just one of the um diseases where fortunately for those with the disease, someone who was famous had a wife that got the disease. So the McGrath Foundation is so well known in Australia. And that's because those people really promoted looking after people with breast cancer. And so, you know, the whole, I guess, experience of going through a breast cancer journey was almost like chalk and cheese to the endometriosis. Everyone thought, oh yeah, I've heard of that, yep, you know, and suddenly everyone knows someone, uh that sort of thing. Doesn't make the experience any better, but what it does do is mean you don't actually have to do that extra hard work to validate what is wrong with you. Um, but it was a big to five, and once again, not in my family. And you know, I I found a lump and I went to a doctor, and suddenly I had a stage three cancer that had very two lymph nodes, and I had to go through all the treatments. So I did chemotherapy for five months, I did um surgery, and then also radiotherapy for about five weeks. So it was a lot of treatment in there. And um, I still managed to work all the way through that time. I had some time off during surgery, um, but you know, I wanted to work, I wanted to work so that I had something in my life that I understood and could feel like I was in control of. Once you're in the cancer treatment journey, you're at the whim of all the experts. You don't get to choose your days, times, or anything. It's if they say come and do this, that's what you've got to do.

James Dunn 23:23

That sounds incredibly challenging. And it seems like having all that treatment must have had a big impact on you. What were the sort of symptoms that you experienced from the treatment?

Mel Ogden 23:32

Chemotherapy, I had symptoms that most people see. So I lost all my hair, um, I was very fatigued, I spent, you know, days just sleeping, and I couldn't do any activities. And, you know, for example, I would go to put my plate in the dishwasher, and that would be that was all I could do. I couldn't finish or help anyone else do that. Um lots of brain bulbs, so you just have moments where you couldn't come up with words. Um I had I never got the tingling in my fingers, but I certainly got very painful feet, which is one of the symptoms you can get from um the chemotherapy, and that was odd because it wasn't there all the time. I'm still having some trouble with my feet, and I did chemotherapy three years ago now, and I can still have trouble with some shoes and whether or not they'll give me blisters. And these are shoes I've owned for years, and they now give me blisters. So things in your body change and don't necessarily come back. Um, radiotherapy was an interesting one. That one, um, your skin just starts to burn and peel over time, and it usually gets worse after you're finished. So you finish going in for the treatment, but you still have to do all of the topical treatments in your skin so that it looks all right afterwards. And then probably the most interesting thing about radio therapy that I didn't know beforehand was that it continues to have an impact on you for up to five years after you've finished treatment. So I can still have issues where the muscles and tissues around where the treatment was get really tight and tensed up, and I need to go and see a massage therapist to actually get that loosened up and keep that moving. I had um problems using my arm for a very long time. I've been seeing a video to get that back to full-range movement. But if I hadn't have gone and sought out people that understood what that treatment does to your body so that I could get the right treatment to get my body back, um, or at least to a point where I can use it, um, you know, I'd be in a lot of pain now because it it can have a long-lasting effect. But you don't always necessarily understand or know that when you're doing that. And would I do it again? Absolutely, because I'm here. And, you know, if the disease ever comes back, I know that I have taken all the steps that I could have taken to prevent it from coming back. Um, but it does have such a long lasting effect on your life afterwards. So I might look healthy, I still sometimes have big brain fogs, I still get tired, even you know, three years down the track. And it's really a case of learning to live in your new body, really.

James Dunn 27:15

So for the purpose of our regular Mythbuster question, we're gonna focus on your experiences with lifelong profound hearing loss. So, what is one myth or misconception you find that people have about people with profound hearing loss? And today we're gonna combine our MythBuster question with a great question from our podcast community, which is how do you deal with those misconceptions and any comments people make about your condition?

Mel Ogden 27:41

So I think what I'd like to highlight is quite often when people meet me, they don't know that I'm deaf. And I don't always automatically bring it up. I don't always need to. If I can have a quick interaction at the supermarket, I don't need to go, hey, I'm deaf if all I'm doing is responding to the question of how I'm going to pay and making the payment, right? But um when I do disclosure, quite often what happens is people go, Oh, you can't tell, you don't sound like you're deaf. And whilst I know that's supposed to be a compliment, really, it's a compliment to my speech pathologist and probably also a compliment to my parents, and perhaps a bit of work that I put in as well, but you know, it's not really a compliment because I am deaf and not all deaf people sound like what people expect deaf people to sound like. Um and it is through a lot of hard work, but it's not necessarily a compliment. It is just the way I am. I and quite often I don't even know what to say. Like, what do I say? Do I say thank you? Do you say sure? You know, I had some good help when I was younger. Like there's just no response that I can come up with that sounds appropriate or oh, but you don't sound deaf.

James Dunn 29:08

Yeah, that's really interesting. And uh I I can sort of relate to that myself. A lot of people say, Oh, you're you're looking really healthy. And it's hard to come up with a response to that. You don't want to sort of talk about how you're not. But to sort of say yes also isn't necessarily reflective of reality either. So as you say, people mean well, but sometimes those interactions can be be a little bit difficult to navigate. When did you first become aware of the hidden disability sunflower and how has it made your life easier?

Mel Ogden 29:37

I actually can't remember when I came aware of it. Um certainly it would have been in the last two or three years, and I think it was really at the airport um and seeing the sunflower um Adelaide Airport and at other airports that I've been to in Australia. And then also just I guess as I traveled in different parts of my city and other cities, seeing it in some of the big venue locations and just going up, you know, recognising that it was or is something that is very useful to people with hidden disabilities. And um as a result of that, I thought, well, I fit in that category and went and got my own um lanyard. I'm still training myself to remember to wear it a bit more often than I do. And I think that's just because I've had decades of not needing to think about that sort of stuff and pushing my way through. But I think it's such a great initiative and it does help when you are in a situation where you aren't really sure who can help you and how you can go about getting that help. And I certainly had wonderful experiences at airports while I've been wearing it, where you know, staff in the airports or the cabin crew have actually been very supportive when I've needed it.

James Dunn 31:06

That's really good to hear. And I have had similar experiences, I think all the major airports in Australia are some of our members, and it really does make a big difference. I've had particularly good experiences at Adelaide Airport as well. Also Adelaide Oval. I was there for the Ashes Cricket at the end of last year, and that was a wonderful experience. They are doing really good work there to support people in that venue. But I think those uh event venues you talk about are critical in terms of the need for it because they can be really stressful environments with a lot of people, a lot of people moving in different directions, a lot of noise and people with all sorts of challenges. So it's great that you've been able to experience uh have a better experience at those places. That's great. So after many years working in the field of procurement and contract management, in more recent years you have uh brought together your interest in these areas with your passion for promoting disability and inclusion. So what are you doing to increase inclusion both in the workplace and in the transactions you help facilitate between organisations? And how have your disabilities shaped how you design and and lead inclusive systems?

Mel Ogden 32:17

I think the key thing that has shaped it is my disabilities aren't obvious. And so being able to tell that story to people from a lived experience perspective, to say, well, you know, you can't actually tell that I have a disability. And in most cases, they have to tell you that I have a disability. Um that when we design things in the workplace, be it systems, be it the actual workplace, environment, um, documents, things like that, that it's very worthwhile to consider all of the people that might be interacting with that system, environment, or document, because there's a lot of evidence that when we accommodate poor disabled people, it actually makes life easier for people that don't have a disability. And so by putting that lens onto what we're doing at work, I think allows us to be a bit more compassionate and kind, but also make things a lot simpler and easier for people to use. And I think sometimes we get so caught up in how we've always done it before, or what we think it should look like, that taking that time to take that step back and look at it through a couple of other lenses, you know. So I always obviously suggest deafness, but you know, we could look at what it's like to have a visual impairment, fatigue to the point where you can't always stand up all the time, um, or anything else that may not be completely visible, but still has an impact on people's lives. And you know, to bring that into the workplace, I think is that last frontier almost. It's like we kind of have built a society where we think we can separate life from work, and you can't. And being able to highlight that you can't leave your disability at home and come to work, it comes along with you that perhaps we need to make the workplace a lot more accepting. And in most cases, what accepting means is maybe a bit more flexibility in how you do things, and maybe a bit more flexibility in how you communicate. If you change those two things up, in most cases you'll accommodate most people with a hidden disability.

James Dunn 34:53

Yeah, absolutely. I love what you said there about accommodations and and adjustments helping everyone, because that is definitely the case. And there's so many good examples of that. And and the Sunflower members that we talk to, they're always providing us with examples of where they've done something with a particular person or group of people in mind, but then everybody says, This is great. This is making my life easier as well. And as you said, there's so many aspects to look at in our systems, document the physical environment and always have that lens of are we helping everybody here to use this environment in the easiest way? So that's a sort of workplace. But you're also helping organisations who, I guess, are conducting business dealings. So procurement, they're tendering for goods or services from another organisation. How are you helping them? What what sort of things are they putting in place to be more inclusive?

Mel Ogden 35:44

One of the things that I talk to organisations about is how they can improve their social footprint. And what that means is quite a lot of Australian organisations and organisations around the world want to show their shareholders and other stakeholders that they are good social citizens. And part of that is also looking at how they go about buying what they need as a business. So for those people that don't know what procurement is, it is buying goods and services for businesses and for their outcomes. So it can be ranging from anything from office equipment to actually outsourcing complete projects for the business. So you know, when you look at when they're building a road or a power plant, procurement is involved in all of that. But it's also involved in a lot of the small things that you probably can't see in a business but helps a business keep running. Part of social procurement is looking at ways that you can buy from organisations that support people that perhaps be in a different social group from you. And um in Australia, there's a big push for Indigenous procurement activities. And then where I support organisations, it's helping them to focus on engaging with businesses that support people with disabilities, either as employers of people with disabilities or perhaps even businesses owned by disabled people, and to allow them to work with your business in whatever services or goods that they provide. And part of that exercise is looking at, you know, where do we find these organizations? How do we attract them? Um, what the processes look like today, and what perhaps might need to be adjusted to make them a lot more, I guess, accessible for people in that space. Anyone who's worked in a small business that has tried to respond to a tender from a very large business will know that the whole process is very complex. And complexity doesn't really work when you're a one-person show or even a 10-person team. And so by giving procurement teams that visibility around how complexity doesn't necessarily make accessible tender, also you get some thinking about perhaps even if they are working with a big team, so bidding um or working together with a large company, there might be someone like me on the other end of the transaction. Because it was at one point, you know, that's what I did for a job. So making all of that process and the documentations more accessible means that once again, everyone has an equal footing when it comes to responding for a tender and perhaps winning work with your business.

James Dunn 38:48

Which is fantastic. And obviously, having organisations that do support people with disabilities, having access to more commercial opportunities is great. But also those businesses that are seeking that are going to get better outcomes if they've got more businesses responding to those tenors, getting more variety of options. So it's another situation of everybody wins, which is great.

Mel Ogden 39:10

And one other way that you could make your um procurement process more accessible is requiring your suppliers to actually report on what they are doing in disability accessible spaces. So if you can't identify a supplier that you know directly supports the disability requirement that you have, you can ask them to take on activities to do that as well. So there can be quite a good ripple effect depending on how your organization and procurement team want to really build on that social procurement aspect.

James Dunn 39:44

That's great. Well, there's some really good tips there for organizations to take note of. So in addition to those examples that you've already provided, what is one small change that individuals or organisations could make tomorrow to improve the lives of people with non-visible disabilities and health conditions?

Mel Ogden 40:02

Mind the really simple one. We're all so used to now asking what are your dietary requirements when we issue invitations for events where there's going to be food. I have a vision that we should normalise asking people what are your accessibility requirements when inviting them to any sort of event for work or at home, so that you can ensure that they feel welcome when they arrive. And that question doesn't need to have a drop-down list or anything like that. It should just be open-ended and allow people to say, hey, in my case, I might want a seat in a certain condition. In other people's cases, they may want to have the transcript sent to them early and or have someone describe something to them so they know how to find the space. Normalization of asking that question makes people feel sane and feel quietly belong, which I think is a really important step we can take for everyone.

James Dunn 40:59

That is a fantastic tip. I love that, and I love its simplicity. And obviously, all the responses that'll come back to that type of approach will just help people to understand more about the different challenges that people have, which is great. Well, thank you so much, Mel, for sharing your story with us today. I've certainly learned a lot uh about uh each of the health conditions you've experienced and particularly how profound hearing loss can be so disabling in a world that hasn't been designed for people with hearing challenges in mind. I also think I can speak for our podcast community when I say that you've had to endure so many challenges in your life to date, but it's uh really inspiring that you have turned those challenges to a positive and you're helping so many people to understand how they can be more inclusive, particularly in commercial environments. So thanks so much for your time today and sharing your story.

Mel Ogden 41:55

Thank you so much for having me.

James Dunn 41:58

Thank you for joining us for another Sunflower Conversation. Please keep the conversation going via our website, hdsunflower.com forward slash AU. On Facebook at Hidden DisabilitiesANZ, on Instagram at hidden disabilities underscore ANZ, and on LinkedIn at Hidden Disabilities Sunflower-Australia and New Zealand. You can also visit our website if your organisation or an organisation you know is interested in becoming a Sunflower member. If you would like to submit a question for one of our guests to answer on a future episode, please direct message us on socials or email us at hds events at Bailey House. That's B-A-Y-L-E-Y-H-O-U-S E.org.au. Please help, have patience, show kindness to others, and join us again soon, making the invisible visible with the hidden disability sunflower.

Speaker 1 42:48

When some days get a little tough, we'll help you find that sign and lift you up.