Acknowledgement And Welcome

James Dunn 0:10

We acknowledge and pay our respects to the traditional custodians of the lands on which we record, and especially to those who may also be living with a disability. Welcome to another episode of the Sunflower Conversations, where we will explore a variety of non-visible disabilities, the way in which people experience their disabilities, and discover the opportunities for society to make access and inclusion improvements that benefit everyone. Hi everyone, my name is James Dunn and I am your host. And like many of the guests on the Sunflower Conversations, I also live with disability, including myalgic encephalomyelitis, more commonly known as chronic fatigue syndrome, and postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome.

Speaker 0:49

When some days get a little tough, we'll help you find that sun and lift you up to catch through.

James Dunn 1:06

On today's show, I'm joined by Fee Heron. Fee is an organizational design expert with over 18 years' experience working in HR with a particular focus on inclusion and large-scale people initiatives. Fi lives with the condition by teleform macular dystrophy, or VMD, and her experience navigating the condition has driven her passion to advocate for improving accessibility and inclusion both in and outside the workplace. Fee Heron, welcome to the show.

Fiona 1:31

Thanks for having me, James.

James Dunn 1:33

I want to firstly take our podcast community back to the beginning of your disability journey. You were born with VMD, but you were not initially diagnosed with the condition until you were eight years old. You first moved to Australia. Can you tell us about what VMD is and also about the diagnostic and personal identity journey that you've been on since you were first diagnosed?

Diagnosis And Identity Catching Up

What Low Vision Really Means

Fiona 1:52

Thank you so much for saying what VMD stands for. I still really struggle to pronounce it if I'm honest. It's part of a genetic condition I have, which was discovered by someone with a surname Best. So my whole life I've known I have Best disease, which is not at all the best. But yeah, that really sort of came into my whole life in terms of obviously my memory of it. I was born in Scotland to Aussie and Kiwi parents and moved um permanently to Australia when I was eight, sort of started to see the family optum. And my recollection of that time was I knew there was that they describe it as something like an egg yolk in the eye, and that might that that was this genetic condition. It was confirmed I had this from my dad. And the the quote that I recall um that sort of was my main anchor to what this meant was um, you know, Fiona might need to sit at the front of the class to read the blackboard at uni, was all I was told about it. Um and really then to when in my 20s, it probably was then, I sort of started to unpack that quote and was like, okay, yeah, sitting at the front of spaces is a bit easier to read things. Um distance isn't really my strong suit. Um, and then sort of as I've learnt about it now, the egg yolk is how VMD shows up and how it's sort of identified. Um I was just sort of reflecting on hearing my dad talk about it as a Kiwi. So we always called it Bists disease, which was my terrible attempt at a Kiwi accent. Um, but yeah, I I really just didn't know what that meant. And so it was, I was in a we're in a small town in far north Queensland, so really and in the 90s, so really not talking about what what any hypervision loss could be. Um, you know, it was in that time where disability was a real binary, visible thing. Um, so through sort of 20s and 30s, I tried to wear glasses, they helped a bit with sort of magnification and really never got to 2020. Um and then it was not till I've been trying to work out exactly the timing. It's a bit bit sort of tricky to work out, but really um I had an incident with um a rideshare driver, which I can now identify was real ableism. But um during that I was really struggling to read something and and they were unfriendly about it, I'll just say. Um, like that's when I really started to realize there's something more going on here. This isn't why can't Glass and that really so that's probably only in the last 10 years, I would say. So it took till my early 30s to go, what is this? I know I have bests, but what does that mean? So I finally connected in with a specialist um who, you know, confirmed that, but actually then started to give me information like this is a progressive disease that it's progressed since you were eight, not a lot, but it has started to hit a progressive point, which is an another indicator of um best disease. It's it's sort of a lifelong, very slow progressing, but um, you know, in that way that only medical specialists can, that was very blunt. Um, and so sort of almost like a rediagnosis at that age to then realize okay, I have this thing, I have to come to terms with that. What does that look like? I had never met anyone or talked to anyone who openly shared they were blind or low vision. I didn't know what low vision was. I hadn't heard about that until probably again in that last sort of 10 years of life, and that low vision is a broad definition of categories of vision loss, and I have moderate low vision. I'm on the tail end towards severe low vision, and then you know, that's got quite a lot of vision scope in it before blindness. I didn't, you know, that's to me, I think, such an unknown part of vision loss. Low vision is this quite big category of vision loss, and I realized, you know, I fit into this moderate category. It can, there's a lot between moderate to severe, then severe to legal blindness. But that was really when I started to go, oh, low vision is a disability. Well, I'm not disabled enough. I I'm not, you know, I need to wait, I'm not invited into low vision spaces, you know, starting to think about could I work with Vision Australia, who are for blind people living with blindness or low vision. And I just sort of triggered a lot of that identity of I haven't lost enough vision yet, um, which feels strange to think back on and reflect on. But, you know, really when I I took the time to think about that, the fact it was progressive as well, and part of why I have become really vocal about um low vision broadly and disability inclusion is that anyone with a progressive condition, it's also about setting myself up for the future. So getting comfortable with this identity, tools that I'm using, get doing all that now before it's a really stark challenge. I saw my dad and his brothers go through that. And um, I have definitely felt that in my career where I'm like just have referred to it as like white knuckling through life. Um, and it's not sustainable. It's not, it's not a good space to be in. So um I'll cap it at explaining where I'm at today with my vision loss to kind of talk talk that through. I have 40% vision vision loss in my right eye and 60% vision loss in my left eye. So when you think about visual acuity 2020 or in Australian um terms, 6'6, that's sort of the scale, and that's where we sort of see the categories for vision loss. And the macular is the central focus point on the eye. So if you think of eyesight like a camera, my central vision's on blurred, my edges are more crisp, um it only affects the macular. Um and yeah, I'm on that sort of moderate border of severe low vision. Um, and there's yeah, there's a big lot before it gets to legal blindness, and it's unknown if I'll ever get to that point.

James Dunn 7:47

Yeah, that's really interesting, Fee. And I think for myself, I didn't probably recognise before meeting you that people with low vision weren't aided by having corrective lenses. And it's something you probably hear a bit, I guess, from people.

Fiona 8:01

And you know, the there's so much wonderful technology to support eyesight. There is lots of people, if you didn't have the benefit of um any, you know, glasses, contact lenses, etc., would be in low vision or legal blindness. I've learned in the last few years Jake Gillenhall is legally blind without um contacts that he wears. Like that's fascinating to me, and it makes me think about just the potential for temporary disability is so much larger than we give space for. You know, if somebody loses their glasses and that kind of thing, you might be in a category of of low vision. But yeah, for low vision, formally they will do as much as possible. So I have worn glasses on and off when it could help a little bit, but um, what that means like when you hear people talk about, you know, that community, it's it's that they sort of, yeah, nothing corrective that they can do to that. This is a broad statement, and I don't think I know enough about it. There's probably people out there who might identify as low vision who can use a little bit. Like it's it's really complex. Our eyes are really complex things, so it depends what what the vision, what vision they have, what what part is deteriorating or impaired in some way. Like it it can be quite varied. I think that's an important part with vision. It's not a binary like blind, not blind, or that kind of thing. It's um it's not uh yeah, it is sort of up to the to individual. But I've encountered a lot of people who would be in that category of low vision, particularly that moderate part that where there's so many things that can help us, but there's it is a real mostly mental um barrier to identify with that and seek that help and get to learn how to use some of the tools and things. But having been through that's been the last two years of my focus, and it's much better on this side of it, I would say.

James Dunn 9:50

Yeah, that's great. And that variation of experience, I think, is reflective across the whole disability community. There's obviously hundreds and hundreds of different disabilities or health conditions that people can have.

Fiona 10:01

Yeah.

James Dunn 10:01

And within those, like you're saying, there's also huge variability. It really struck me when you were saying there that you felt for a long period, am I disabled enough? And that's definitely a question I've asked myself a lot over the years, and I'm sure a lot of people have. And as you're alluding to, if you need help in some way, then you know the answer to that is yes. And I think people should feel comfortable seeking the help that they need.

Fiona 10:26

And that it's not a bad word. Like we all will face some type of barrier at some point, and it's, you know, I often will try to frame it as do you find something disabling about this environment? Because if you frame it that way, the answer's much more often gonna be yes, and and it is a tricky thing with identity. I give a lot of time and space to people to work through with that, but it because it is seen, it definitely through my growing up, it was, yeah, it was sort of held for people who had um a lot of physical conditions and visible disabilities, or um much more, you know, what's represented in in media representations, like just those sorts of commonly known things, like just the breadth of disability or things that can environments that can be disabling and attitudes. Um, so yeah, I think that's a a really tricky one. And and for anyone who might listen to sort of go, oh, I'm scared to call myself. Or for me, I was like, oh, okay, someone's gonna invite me into this community, or if I get NDIS funding, maybe that will be my card to the disability community. Um, but you know, I'm still not NDIS supported. And so, you know, you have have to just really do a bit of that internal work to um embrace, embrace that. It's a it's a very welcoming community.

Mythbuster Looking Isn’t Seeing

James Dunn 11:46

I think a lot of people will be able to relate to your experience and that journey that you're on. I certainly can. A question we're gonna ask all of our guests on this season of the podcast is what we're calling the mythbuster question. So, what is one myth or misconception you find that people have about people with low vision?

Fiona 12:02

So I mentioned it before about that sort of binary of vision blind can fully see. For me specifically, the myth, and this is part of hidden disability, is that just because I'm looking doesn't mean I'm seeing. So, you know, personally for me, because my peripheral vision is quite good, I move my eyes a lot um and I have like blank spots in my immaculate, so I in my central vision. So I move around my eyes a lot to see my full surroundings, I can see where there's good contrast, I can sort of see what direction to look in, I can follow voices, I understand social cues about where to look. But just because I'm looking at somebody, or you might be in my line of quote unquote sight, doesn't mean I'm seeing you. Um, that has come up a lot where I'm sort of looking in a certain direction and um it has happens at events where I'm looking around and then there's a sort of a flash, I'm like, oh, I was accidentally like looking straight at a camera person and they thought I was looking at them for a photo, and then there's just awkward, just stunned photos, or um, you know, people waving at me from across a building um comes up a lot at work, and I was like, I I can hear a voice, I can understand that there's a person waving, but I have absolutely no idea who they are. So I think people get a bit tripped up with people living with vision loss, and that hidden part of it is that, well, they're looking, so they must be able to see it. Um so a lot of that is is masking.

James Dunn 13:28

Absolutely, and I think it's probably counterintuitive for a lot of people to think that if they're in your central vision that you wouldn't be able to see them.

Fiona 13:35

Yeah.

James Dunn 13:36

It happens sometimes that people are sort of standing right in front of you and they probably think they're doing the right thing by getting right into your central vision because that's actually worse for you.

Fiona 13:43

Yeah, and I I too big pick up a lot of things on the peripheral really well, and so people get thrown when I'm like, oh, so-and-so's over there. Because I can either see it in my peripheral or I pick up a lot of things other than the person, you know, I can hear, recognize people by the cadence of their walk, often their voices, or I, you know, if I've seen them already, I know what they're wearing, I can I can you know see that sort of thing. So I, you know, there's there's a lot that I can do. It's the central one. Or um, if it's a lot of noise, I can't always pick up um voices. So, you know, it's one of the things Vision Australia taught me was to sort of think about asking people to say their name. And that's that's a real hard thing for people to remember. I do get that, but it's such a relief, you know, walking around the office if some if you you know walk past me like Hey Fe, it's James, I'm immediately included in knowing who you are and able to pick up in that sort of chat, and that's so difficult to do that. So it's um yeah, but there's this sort of misconception of, you know, if I say hi really loudly, or yeah, get in right in front of your face, you'll know um who I am. Doesn't always work.

Workplace Barriers And Helpful Tech

James Dunn 14:49

Yeah, I can see that would be very challenging. So you've mentioned a few things, but what are some other daily challenges and barriers that exist for people with low vision, including in the workplace?

Fiona 15:00

And it's interesting with a a bucket like low vision, because it can really vary. Um, but I think uh on top of the sort of looking but not seeing thing, you know, just you know, that social setting that's a barrier for a lot of people, whether it's the the noise or identifying people, networking's really hard for me with name tags, but I have found some positives in that. Probably the thing for anyone with low vision is the gap to accessing assistive technology. It can be very expensive, let's just say, but having worked through that understanding how a screen reader can help me, I use a a combo magnifier and reader. Um that makes me able to work so independently and back to, you know, earlier in my career where I was didn't have this level of vision loss, but understanding what that was, getting access to it, and then also having the right computer that can host that, um knowing what to expect in a meeting and what tech I need to bring, um, if if you know, sort of rolling into event all of a sudden there's a bunch of visual things and I don't have that heads up to be able to bring uh tools with me or have pre-reddit. So it's just sort of that accessing the information in the workplace that you need. There's so much technology that can help, but the price of it and the awareness of it, um there's quite a big gap in that, which I think is is really challenging for for a lot of people to think you know what adjustments they might be able to ask for, um, or just things that might be able to help themselves is there's quite a big gap there. It's very challenging.

James Dunn 16:40

Yeah, and as you said, that price barrier would be a challenge for a lot of people and some organizations. And it sounds like I mean you've just rattled off sort of four or five things there, so it sounds like there's a lot of things that need to line up for you to have a good experience in that workplace environment. So you're really hoping that you're able to put those things in place.

Fiona 17:00

And I will say there's a lot of free apps that is a really great gateway to just testing out like would that help? Because it's again, it's so different what what Wheel and help. There's I prefer a lot of dark contrast settings and those sorts of things, but other people need particular colour settings or prefer a lot of really bright light, like so there's inherently already just a lot to explore, but there's a couple of free apps, anything that's that magnification or that can read stuff out to you. It's all the technology that gives us like voice to text and those sorts of things. It's even just built into most workplace platforms, have some type of read-aloud function in your web browser or that kind of thing. So, you know, there's lots of people that benefit from audio learning versus reading. So, sort of just I would just recommend trying some of those. And then there is some pathways in Australia to get some access to that. There's a company called Job Access that I was unaware of, like a government body called Job Access, that will come and assess you in the workplace and help recommend some of those things. That's how I learnt and was able to trial a couple of things, and then you can apply for some government funding outside of NDIS for that. Um, it's it's slow, it's a it's you know, there's there's um time that it takes, but it was really helpful to just have a bit of navigation. I often felt like just there was a barrier to understanding assistive technology. I remember saying to somebody, I feel like there's this big pool of all these tools that people can have to live independent lives of someone with a disability, and there's a big old fence, and I can't work out how to get over it or where the gate is. And so finding different pathways to that and getting that support took me, you know, a bit of time, probably six months to a year, but it has been very worth it to have found my way through that fence and into the pool of there's tons of things that help people with disability um have some independence back.

James Dunn 18:56

It's great that you've been able to get to that space, and I'm sure it's reduced your stress levels a lot, which is great. And I think what you touched on there again was just that variance of experience with people with low vision. So, like we talk about a lot on this podcast, there has to be that constant conversation with your employer about what your needs are because they vary between person to person, but they also vary within a person's experience that may change over time. So it's not a one size fits all or a set and forget support framework. It has to be an ongoing conversation. So yeah, that's great.

Fiona 19:33

And everyone has access needs. Um, you know, if people have children and they need to work different hours depending on the age of that child, that's a that's things that change, and it's that is clear, really clear we've come so far in this country with how that might be supported. And I very much appreciate that's not a great experience for lots of parents that I know, but it it's interesting that when it comes to something that particularly invisible disabilities or anything else, there's just this knee-jerk to like, well, I need proof, or um, it has to just be this one thing, and it like there's just not as much of an understanding of there's diff there's change in that, and it's not it's a dynamic situation, it's it's not just this sort of thing. So it's it's really interesting the attitude difference.

Strengths Built Through Vision Loss

James Dunn 20:19

Absolutely, yeah. So this season we have also sought input from our podcast community about what it's like to live with a non-visible disability or health condition. So one of our wonderful community members has asked, has your disability shaped any strengths that you are proud of?

Fiona 20:34

Oh, thank you, community member. That's a really lovely question. Um, the one I alluded to with the networking that's been a recent one is the strength to kind of approach anyone. I had a I was in a situation where I networked with someone really senior and I reflected that I've been in situations where cited friends and colleagues have said, Oh, I can't go and talk to them. That's so-and-so. And so they're holding themselves back because they know who that person is. And I don't have that barrier. I don't know who anyone is, so inherently I can talk to anyone. Um, so that's a new one that I've realized is a strength I can tap into. Um, this is a bit of a trope for people and not everyone's experience with blindness or low vision, but I really do have great hearing. Um I I it's it can be overwhelming at times. I it definitely get like audio overload, but it's it's such a strength to picking up voices. Um you know, it's a it's a big navigation tool for me, but then it's it's also like the identification things through hearing. So if we're watching um any sort of animated show, I just like pick up really straight away who any actor is, or some of those sorts of things that um or you know, out somewhere I like identify music and songs really quickly or hear hear those sorts of things. So um I think that's a great strength. And then more so sort of the other senses with this sort of progressive condition, more than looking at fine detail. So I'm a very perceptive and intuitive through that, like just sort of picking up a sense of a situation or knowing those sorts of things. It's things that it's feedback I get that comes through a lot, like that. I have strong intuition. Um, the other one is around problem solving and resourcefulness. So um I think and I've heard that come up a lot with other people in the disability community, where you're just very used to figuring out a way forward. But yeah, the the resourcefulness um is a massive strength that I'm really proud to have. And a quick build I had on this question that was just thinking sharing about my disability has really shaped my confidence and and that uh chance to sort of accept myself, the situations that you know that comes back to the resourcefulness. But um there's such a strength in finding a way to share about your disability and owning your story that really just turns the volume up on a lot of strengths that you have. It has allowed me to embrace them a lot more. So to put that back to community members, I think just there is a way to build on those strengths even more through sharing about living with disability and and owning your story.

James Dunn 23:10

That's great. It's really uplifting to hear all those strengths that you feel you have because that one sort of sense has been dialed down, the others are sort of dialed up in your case. It's great. And you've got that confidence. I love that example of where you're confident to go into a room and and and speak to anyone which some of your colleagues aren't. That must be really empowering.

Fiona 23:34

It is, and and I should just I just want to say this is distinctly different from my attitude, even just two years ago. I could not talk about my having low vision, anything about my disability without being very emotional. Um, it was such a huge barrier to be able to talk about it. And so just want to also put that out there that I've listened, I've been the listener in lots of these things, being like, oh God, I you know, how do you get there? And so I'm I'm two years into this of feeling comfortable talking about it. And it's it is hard work. I think the year I cried the most in ever was 2024. Like just so much to process and work through and accept and and just still to this day, uh, if I have a conversation about stuff, I was like, oh, I I was sharing about this experience I had, and I didn't cry. That still to me is a huge metric of progress and success. Um, and I don't feel emotional in this conversation, I feel really excited to be in this conversation, but even just as short as two years ago, I just want to put that out there. That was um it it it is, you know, there's no no time like the present. Like it you don't have to have always been confident or um start out that way. You can start at any time, just take that one step.

James Dunn 24:55

Absolutely, and that's really encouraging for our podcast community here. I think that reflects my own journey as well. I don't think I spoke about my condition at all uh for the first few years and and actively tried not to sort of gone, I guess, um 180 to to now sort of talking about it comfortably, but it is a journey and it's not linear either. I think I went through phases of feeling comfortable talking about it and then maybe um regressing a little and then sort of pushing forward. So it can be a bit of a two steps forward one process, but it's great that you've got to where you are. That's fantastic.

Fiona 25:27

And to you too, James. Like I and yeah, it really resonates with uh sometimes you don't want to talk about it. And I've had that advice from my therapist, like can you just what can you do to just put it down and put down the struggle and not think and not be in spaces that it's glaringly obvious to you that there's things that are disabling and just give you a fine safe spaces to be just be when you're going through that is is yeah, important to to give yourself a bit of that space when you can.

Why Fee Wears The Sunflower

James Dunn 25:52

Absolutely. So you've been a proud sunflower wearer for a few years now, which is fantastic. In what situations and environments do you most wear it and how does it help you?

Fiona 26:02

Yeah, it it's so tied into that two-year journey of um getting confident and and wanting, you know, that it was almost like a motivator for me. I loved this program and it I knew it could help. And so it also motivated me to get more comfortable with it because I was like, oh, I don't want to put this signal out there if I'm still uncomfortable talking about it. So, you know, that might not work for everyone, but it was a motivator. So it was it that's was a big part of starting it. Um, I predominantly use it, I think like a lot of people travel um airports and public transport. Um I've started to do it a little bit more at at events. I do use an ID cane, which is a shorter white cane for people with low vision who uh it's ironically a visual cue to other people. Um, but it's not a mobility cane that needs to touch the ground, it's a shorter one, just as this sort of representative. But um so sort of using that in combination um to sort of feel, you know, it's so I get so excited when I notice the symbol, like the hidden some disability sunflower at events, but yeah, sort of having it there um has been really great. And then yeah, the the lanyard I find is that biggest in signal when I think there's going to be something potentially disabling in that environment, and I most likely want to ask for something or would be open to being approached about, hey, we have such and such, would you like to come this way, like a a sunflower entry or those sorts of things? Um but then I to be honest, outside of all of that, I almost always wear a wristband and a pin because to me it is it's a sign of pride and and it's this way to signal to other people in the community, like, hey, there's more people with disability in this space than you think there are. I get so excited when I see it in the wild and have had reactions from other people who just get so excited to see and be like, my God, we've got this connection and with invisible and hidden disabilities, you don't have that. It can be so lonely in this community. But so I I often just honestly wear it as like a same way people might wear pride flags or other sorts of um indicators. So um almost always wearing some type of sunflower, and I have it has infested my wardrobe deeply. I have multiple um dresses or earrings and things with sunflowers on them beyond that. So it's taken over my life a little bit in a really positive way.

James Dunn 28:28

That's great that you're accessorising with the sunflower. It's fantastic to hear. And I think the pride that you have wearing it, that's great to hear as well. I certainly feel that. And when you see other people wear it, it is uplifting. I think, particularly in that event scenario, there are some events that people with non-visible disabilities or health conditions just can't attend unless they are sunflower friendly. And I know that when people see that symbol and know that that event is a sunflower member, it opens that door to be able to be part of that event, which is you know incredibly empowering.

Fiona 29:01

Yeah. I saw in the footage for Mardi Gras 2026 they had like a big sunflower projected um live and they're showing the route and they had sort of at the start and the end, and I was with friends going, is that like the sunflower? Like, is that what that is? And and being so flawed and excited that that was represented there and and just the inclusive like building on the inclusivity of Mardi Gras. Um it's it's so powerful and I was so excited.

James Dunn 29:30

Absolutely. Well, I went to Mardi Gras and it was exciting to um have that accessibility. I think they have three areas with accessible seating, um, which is great. It again, it just makes an event um accessible uh for people which otherwise wouldn't be.

Fiona 29:46

Yeah, and I I haven't gone for a number of years for that kind of reason. So I might um put it on my 2027 bucket list.

Making Workplaces Sunflower Friendly

James Dunn 29:54

Absolutely. So you've become a real champion for inclusion and the sunflower in your current role as an organizational development lead in a large organization. So, what does your role involve and what are some of the measures and initiatives that you're doing in the workplace to assist people with low vision and other people with invisible disabilities and health conditions?

Fiona 30:13

It's so important to talk about it at work, and I've lived through so many poor workplace experiences. I think it's really helpful to have a mix of lived experience and to connect with other people on that. OD, as you said, organizational development and HR, all about enabling a business through people, their biggest, most important sort of asset. So all those experiences, big and small, are so important to make sure that they're inclusive. So one of the main things was bringing hidden disability sunflower into our workplace. So chipping away at making sure we've got a full, you know, we sort of can be really sunflower friendly, what that looks like. It's been a really nice gateway to a number of other conversations about um inclusion or people taking that disability journey and shaping towards like, how else can we um what else can we do? You know, really making sure we're listening to the communities of people with health conditions, invisible disabilities. I know as well a lot of the neurodivergent community connect with wearing the sunflower and bringing something hidden about who they are to the surface. So um it's really opening more conversations. So it's great to be bringing that into the workplace. Um, I'm also, I think I've touched on this a little bit lately, very passionate about adjustments in the workplace and what access needs are the perception of them, ensuring that there's equitable access to whatever people need to make them work. There's such a perception that um workplace adjustments are just for people with disability and um that they're not. They're human right to dignified work environment. Um, you know, I think a lot about some of the examples of reasons people need adjustments, like someone people going through perimenopause and menopause, um, they might need a fan to help with temperature fluctuations, but they're not required to have medical evidence of that stage of life, and and it's sort of a common thing in in some wet places, I appreciate not all. Um, but you know, the second it's sort of something that's a bit unclear, or I I've definitely encountered some of that. Like, what is low vision? What even is that? Do you have it? What's your diagnosis? And there's a real focus on needing proof and medical side of things. So I really try to lean towards those conversations. It's it's difficult. There's a lot of reasons why, like if it's an injury, people do need medical things. There's there's those sorts of things, but it's just removing it from that bucket and and treating it as something different. So um, and as we touched on before, when it comes to things like progressive conditions, it might change. There's trial and error that we need to do. A lot of people don't have medical documentation, could be, you know, financial or um time barriers to that. Like there's just so much of that that that needs unpacking. So that's been something I've been um trying to get closer to, um finding ways to sort of work through that and but advocating for again. As I sort of said earlier, sharing my own story has become a strength of mine. And I think that has also helped people understand. I've had that feedback from colleagues of just how much they've learned about disability community by me being more open. Um yeah, and so I think that's probably actually one of the things that I'm doing to assist specifically the low vision community is sharing story. I've been really open about it. I've talked um publicly. We sort of try to share stories within our workplace on quite a big platform. And and so leading by example and being open and showing people the journey of that, and it's it's not a like I felt this way one day and this way the next day. All of that I think is is something I'm doing to yeah, assist other people with low vision and help people know what it is and that they can call themselves disabled too. Um, and yeah, anyone else that might be sort of resonate with a lot of these experiences, as you've said, there's a lot that is common across all sorts of hidden disability situations.

James Dunn 34:06

Well, it's great that you are turning your disability to a real strength to help other people. That's fantastic. And you've identified some fantastic points there about what can help in the workplace. And obviously, there's those physical adjustments, which, as you also said, help everyone, not just people with disabilities. Um, but also I think the conversation starter element of the sunflower is a big one in the workplace.

Fiona 34:29

Absolutely.

James Dunn 34:30

Just an environment where people feel comfortable talking about the challenges they have and what needs they have, I think is a real strength of the sunflower and the and the symbol. And also like your trust, not proof mantra.

Fiona 34:41

Yeah. Yeah.

Trust People And Final Calls

James Dunn 34:43

Uh I think if we have more of that in the workplace, it'll go a long way uh to making people feel comfortable and having more productive, happy workplaces. So that was a great point. So the final question we'll ask all our guests this year is what is one small change that individuals or organizations could make tomorrow to improve the lives of people living with non-visible disabilities and health conditions.

Fiona 35:03

I think I stole my point in my last answer, but it's trust people. I know we live in a society where it's really hard to trust and believe in things, but start with trust, I think is a pretty small change and we offer a lot of people a lot of trust inherently. So I think just remembering that it's a person and trust what they're saying or what they're asking for is quite a small act for people. It has an enormous impact for the person that's asking for something or being vulnerable and sharing. So yeah, just trust people.

James Dunn 35:34

That's fantastic. And I think that's right. Sometimes workplaces seem to design systems around the 1% of people or probably 0.1% of people who may not do the right thing at the expense of the other 99.9%. So all the forms and the proof requirements are just an impediment to people getting what they need. Yeah. Just in case of somebody who's asking it who doesn't need it. I think 99.9% of the time, if someone asks for something, they need it.

Fiona 36:01

That's it. And we want people to trust us, you know, whether that's the organization or just you as a person, you expect people to trust you, and so you have to give that back.

James Dunn 36:11

Absolutely. Thanks for coming on the show today, Fee. It's been great to hear your disability journey, and I know a lot of people will benefit from it. You've had some fantastic insights there, and thank you for opening up. It really is helping other people.

Fiona 36:24

Thanks so much for having me and inviting me on and letting me give very long answers. It's been really great to talk to you, James.

James Dunn 36:30

Thank you for joining us for another Sunflower Conversation. Please keep the conversation going via our website, hdsunflower.com forward slash AU. On Facebook at Hidden Disabilities ANZ, on Instagram at hidden disabilities underscore ANZ, and on LinkedIn at Hidden Disabilities Sunflower-Australia and New Zealand. If you would like to submit a question for one of our guests to answer on a future episode, please direct message us on socials or email us at HDS events at Bailey House. That's B-A-Y-L-E-Y-H-O-U-S E.org.au. Please help. Have patience, show kindness to others, and join us again soon, making the invisible visible with the hidden disability sunflower.

Speaker 37:14

When some days get a little tough, we'll help you find that sun and lift you up to catch through to sunflower blue.