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Flic Manning: We acknowledge and pay respects to the traditional custodians of the lands on which we record and especially to those who may also be living with a disability. Welcome to another episode of the Sunflower Conversations where we will explore a variety of disabilities, the way in which people experience their disabilities and discover the opportunities for society to make access and inclusion improvements for everyone. My name is Flic Manning and I'm your host.

Hi everyone. My name is Flic Manning and like many of the guests on the Sunflower Conversations, I am also disabled. Some of my conditions include Crohn's disease, Lupus and Reynaud’s syndrome. Today, I'm joined by an award-winning neurodivergent leader, speaker and founder of Wondiverse, Madeleine Jaine Lobsey. Madeleine, welcome to the show. 

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Madeleine Lobsey: Thank you.

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Flic Manning: Absolute pleasure to have you here. I'm excited for this conversation. And Madeline, you've actually spoken openly about being proudly autistic and ADHD, and it's a real joy to know that you feel proud.

When the world often views any differences as issues, how have you maintained or created that sense of pride in yourself?

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Madeleine Lobsey: Yeah, that's a really good question because I think it's a journey and I do like that you said maintained because I think there are moments when I don't experience pride, you know, when someone says, I don't know, something undermining or the environment is really not designed for me. I can have definitely a moment of feeling different or other or less than. So I like that you asked maintained a sense of pride because I think it's something I've worked on and, and, you know, I've gone through many different things in my life that made me feel not proud and a lot of personal growth and personal work to be proud that was already in the foundation before I was diagnosed autistic ADHD.

So I think I have to say there was a lot of groundwork that was already there. And then, you know, once I was diagnosed, I was one of those people that had a real sense of relief when I was diagnosed, like suddenly things made sense. And, um, you know, there'd been things in my life, a really good example is always Excel spreadsheets, you know, Excel spreadsheets were like terrible for me.

It was like, I just could not get my brain to work with them. Even though I knew myself as someone who was smart and capable, but to hide that because I thought that was such a problem, I would spend no joke up to eight hours trying to work on a spreadsheet that would take someone 10 minutes. So when I was diagnosed, I literally had this epiphany of going, well, I'm also short and if I can't reach something in the cupboard, I stand on a chair and I, and that's, I don't beat myself up about having to stand on a chair.

And so it was literally like, why would I beat myself up about anything that my operating system of a brain does or doesn't do? So it was such a wild epiphany. I think it was like this, almost like a breakthrough into a new realm where I saw life differently. Um, and even being able to do that, I was left with a sense of pride. I can't believe I've gotten this far and been okay, like survived. So I was actually overwhelmed with pride, like far out. You're a legend. You've made it this far with no idea why things were so hard. And then I think the ongoing stuff is definitely community.

Definitely spending time with other autistic ADHD people leaves me with a sense of who I am and, and that for me, um, makes me feel proud when I look at other autistic ADHD people as well. Um, and I think the other big one Flick and everybody is, is learning to honor my own needs and, and every time I do that, it's like an injection of pride because my whole life that has not been the way that I've acted or behaved. I, I've just constantly tried to accommodate everybody and everything and get through.

So every time I honor my own needs, I feel proud.

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Flic Manning: What an incredible answer. And I have such respect for you for being able to develop that. And as you said, there was obviously groundwork involved in doing that, but even just that epiphany. I think that is such a great takeaway for anyone that's listening or reading the transcript today. When there's something about you that is just you, it's part of what makes you, you makes you tick. Why do we feel like we need to bash ourselves up for it?

Like you said, if you're short and you need the chair to get to the shelf. Then you just do it. And yet we've programmed this world in, in so many ways to be opposite that when there's things that just make us uniquely who we are, I have great respect for you developing that and having that epiphany. And I think that's so useful, as I said, for anyone that's listening or reading that transcript today. So thank you for sharing that, Madeline. Now in your work and speaking, what are some of the most, I guess, persistent misconceptions that you encounter about autism and ADHD, especially when it comes to things like maybe leadership or creative roles?

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Madeleine Lobsey: Yeah, I thought, I'm glad I got this question in advance because it gave me the chance to think about it because, you know, when you live in a world that's not designed for you, it's, it's like, everything's a misconception, you know? So I was like, I did struggle to go, okay, let me try and say something clear about it because it feels like everything's a misconception. And I'll talk a bit more in a second about it, but some of the, I guess, most common things like people think autistic ADHD people are either hyper logical, like all logical and all system and all process or, or hyper creative and all over the shop.

So there's just no nuance. There's no space for nuance ever. And then I think the other part of it is there's a resistance, maybe even an annoyance, to that, whatever accommodations.

Now we say accommodations, which kind of annoys me in itself, because I'm like, really? And accommodation is please dim the lights slightly, but, you know, whatever the accommodations are, they're going to be too much or they'll be too hard or they'll be too expensive. And, and at its like worst end of it, I would say that there's this fear that if they make allowances for my needs, it's like opening a can of worms for everybody.

Like they're going to have, oh, now we're going to have to, you know, do, let anybody have accommodations or, or that kind of thing. And then I would say, you know, we, it's really amazing. Neurodivergence was just not on the radar for a very long time and it's much more common in conversation and therefore so are things like basic neuroinclusive practices like turn down the lights or reduce the sound.

But I'm, and that's amazing. That's wonderful. And I almost think we're now swinging the other way because there are, for me, I love being in, you know, environments that are lots of sensory experiences and, you know, there's things that I don't want you to dim the lights and I don't want you to reduce the sound and there are other times I really do because there's something I'm being impacted by. So I think we're now almost making assumptions in the other way, like, okay, the moment it's autistic, turn the lights down, get rid of this out, you know, versus again, like the nuance of the human being in front of you or the event in front of you.

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Flic Manning: Yeah, I think that's a really, really good point. And it's interesting that you say that. I'm certainly seeing that commonality coming through as well. I speak at a lot of conferences and things like that. So it's very interesting to see how then people are, again, rather than actually having that clear clarity of communication and really talking to the nuance of what do the individuals need at this particular conference or at this particular time, it then becomes the, again, the blanket assumption of, well, if you've got this diagnosis, it equals X, Y, Z that we need to do as actions. So it's like we're learning, but we're not necessarily learning that the communication part is pretty, pretty darn important when it comes to inclusion.

So, again, thank you for highlighting that because anyone listening slash reading the transcript, again, if you are in a position of leadership, you're managing teams of people, you're building out conferences, events, whatever it may be, that's a really important takeaway and how it's going to affect you moving through that role. Now, Madeleine, you've obviously created events, programs, workplace training, all sorts of things that reimagine what inclusion can look like and be like. Can you share a moment from one of those spaces that really captured the power of neurodiverse-led design?

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Madeleine Lobsey: Yeah, I could talk for hours about this Flic because I've really dedicated my life to discovering how to create a world where all neurotypes can work and play together. And I say neurotypes, but really, you know, like an operating system or a brain or a way of thinking. But for me, it's far more expansive than that. It's really like where all human beings can work and play together. And I thought there's two sort of clear moments for me in different domains. One is at a play event that we did at the Brisbane Powerhouse. And one of the things that I've really discovered is how much choice and space make a difference. So, you know, in this one event in the main theatre in the Brisbane Powerhouse, we had a silent disco with like full-on, hardcore, lame way music festival DJs, like not a, not a, I don't know how to say it, but like lame, let's do this sort of little lame silent disco. No, like exactly like you would at any music festival, silent disco.

And then in another part of the building, there was this visual cued, silent collage making activity with a professional neurodivergent artist. All the artists were neurodivergent and the DJs. And then we had a live songwriting event where people could go and you could say, you know, I love lobsters and they'd turn it into a song or you'd give a whole, you know, lyrics and they'd live play the piano and guitar and sing.

And then another part that was this soundscape that was like mixed beats where the community could come and say a word and it would get mixed into the soundscape and play across the venue. So there's this very sensory driven and lots of stuff. And, and the thing that makes me cry time and time again, when I think about that event is there was nothing about that event that was a quote unquote disability event.

It was an event for everybody that was so well designed in its neuro inclusion that, you know, five, six, seven parents or autistic adults came up to me and said, I'm lucky to last 10 to 15 minutes at something like this. And I'm now into my third hour of being here. And that for me is everything that they can participate that fully. Then the other one was in a workplace training. So I'm in a very high level government serious place doing workplace training. And the equivalent to like a CEO was in the training with other employees.

And everything I do is through play and discovery. I think it's essential to humanity and what are fundamental skills for connection and relationship. And so they were playing with Lego and because I'm, because of the space I create as a neurodivergent person, because of the inclusive practice, there's a freedom to be that just isn't normally available. And so in the middle of that playing with Lego, this CEO person had an epiphany and said, far out, I'm a real jerk with my staff. And as a neurodivergent person who's committed to being straight and authentic and connecting with people, I said, yeah. And then he said, you know, I don't have to be like that.

And I went, really, you don't. And he got to sort of discover different ways. And then in the middle of that, you know, we know that disclosure is very low in workplaces for neurodivergent people.

And one of the other staff came over and whispered in my ear, I've got a really good example of something about being neurodivergent here that, you know, nobody really knows. And I said, are you willing to be public? And in that space, they got to say everything they wanted to say.

And then I got to say, you have an expert sitting in your building that at any moment you could go to and say, what's your experience of like, you know, of this like, and you could have your workplace be a true place of connection or this authenticity and inclusion.

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Flic Manning: Wow, what powerful examples. First of all, I want to go to that event. I really want to go to that event. That sounds amazing. And it makes such a difference when we actually all get to be involved. And that's whether it's you're on the spectrum of neurodivergence or any other sort of disability, mental illness, chronic illness. This is a common thread that we hear over and over again in conversations of people masking and trying to show up and using up capacity they don't have to try and stay at events that are not designed for them. And the roll on effect for that can can be weeks sometimes of recovery and mental health that, that ticks up as a result of it. So it's so beautiful to hear such a supportive space that you've been able to be involved in and create and then to have that kind of an epiphany with a leadership person in the room.

We know so often that is a big thing, trying to get leaders into the room when we're doing any kind of training around inclusion, accessibility, that can be a struggle. So well done to be able to facilitate that, but also to create that sense of connection and allow both sides of the employment aspect to look at one another and go, there is a reason we're all in the same room together. And this is really powerful. So hats off to you for being able to achieve that. And again, there's so much beautiful stuff that can come out of inclusion. And I think you've highlighted that so, so well.

Madeleine, you've obviously also mentored across different sectors and you've led national initiatives, which are really big tasks to do. How has your lived experience shaped the kind of leader that you are and the environments that you aim to create?

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Madeleine Lobsey: Yeah, this is a great question, Flic. And I stepped back and I had to look, you know, like what is the answer to that question and I think what is often blind to me and just who I am, you know, when something is just who you are, you don't often see it until someone points it out. But I would say given all of my life experience, who I am is that all people are great, all people want to participate and all people are a mighty contribution. That is just like unquestionable for me. It's just who I am. It's when I look, when I look at a human being, that's all I see.

So that really shapes an environment when that's who you are. And then I think the other part of it is I'm a hundred percent flat-footed about, again, like unshakable about, that whatever we do to include, I'm talking about neurodivergent people, but I always mean everyone, that whatever we do to include neurodivergent people empowers everyone. I'm unshakable about it. I'm flat-footed. And then there's a raw authenticity that is part of my advocacy. Like, I remember years ago having, again, another epiphany that, you know, we used to see Bono, Bono from U2, the lead singer from U2, and he'd always talk about poverty and I was like, wow, Bono's talking a lot about poverty, right?

And then I was thinking, I don't know that Bono's actually doing a lot himself about poverty, and I was imagining all the not-for-profits and the governments and all the people that were really doing something about the poverty going, well, they're probably the ones that should be talking, but part of the epiphany was, yes, and the world needs a Bono. They need someone willing to be up the front, willing to talk about it, willing to advocate. And so even though I'd been someone who didn't want to be the voice, didn't want to be the speaker, I was like, well, this isn't about me.

This is about being a Bono. And so, you know, as part of my advocacy, I choose to be authentic. I choose to be raw. I choose to be generous in my sharing. And then I think through all of that, I have discovered that what is fundamental to inclusion is a sense of wonder, a sense of discovery, a sense of discovering the world and people and life around you, and what is fundamental to connection and belonging is play.

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Flic Manning: Yeah. Beautiful. I love the passion and the power in the way that you've spoken there and just, yeah, all of it. I'm completely with you. I think when we are all included, everything's better. It's just better across the board and it doesn't have to be that hard.

If we're really serious about building a future where all neurotypes can thrive, what's one bold shift you think needs to happen, whether it's in policy, culture or day-to-day thinking that we can start doing today?

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Madeleine Lobsey: I think the one big bold shift is to move from a problem or deficit model where there's something wrong and move to what would bring joy for all of us, which would mean we cannot focus on the people with disability. We must focus on all of us. And that if all of us could actually stop trying to solve a problem and actually be in a world of discovery about what would cause joy, what would cause connection, what would cause belonging, what would cause love, that's the bold move to make.

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Flic Manning: Yeah. Beautifully, beautifully put. So again, Madeleine, beautifully worded the whole way through. It's been a pleasure to talk to you. Thank you so much for being willing to share your lived experience and what makes you tick because we've all benefited from it today. 

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Madeleine Lobsey: Thank you.

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Flic Manning: Thank you for joining us for another Sunflower Conversation. Please keep the conversation going via our website hdsunflower.com/au on Facebook @HiddenDisabilitiesANZ or on Instagram @hiddendisabilities_ANZ