Cerebral Palsy and Mental Health with Eva Abley

Speaker Key:

CB     Chantal Boyle

EA      Eva Abley

VO     Voice Over

00:00:00

VO

Welcome to The Sunflower Conversations, where we explore the Hidden Disabilities Sunflower and its role in supporting people with hidden disabilities.

CB     

Good evening, everyone. So, welcome to this Instagram Live. My name is Chantal, and tonight we're going to be talking to Eva Abley. So, I am just going to invite Eva now to the chat, so just give me a moment. There's Eva. Let me just invite her. One moment. I can see lots of people joining, so thank you very much for joining. That's brilliant. And here's Eva. Hi, Eva. 

EA       

Hello.

CB      

How are you?

EA       

I’m good. How are you?

CB      

Yes, I'm really good, thanks. I'm really conscious, though, because I'm getting old. I have to have my glasses on to read my questions. And I've got circles from the lights. So, sorry about that, everybody. It's just what happens when you reach a certain age. 

So, joining us tonight is Eva. I say tonight, it's still light outside. It's five o’clock, but it's early evening time. So, Eva is joining us. Eva is going to talk to us because she has lived experience of cerebral palsy. We have just celebrated World Cerebral Palsy Day. So it's really timely that we have this chat now, although Eva and I have spoken to each other before, a year ago.

00:01:30

But a lot happens in a year in Eva's life, so we're going to cover some of that. So, Eva started to write comedy when she was 14 years old, shot to fame on Britain's Got Talent as a finalist. Yes, so that's at age 14. Then appeared in a TV documentary about mental health for the BBC. 

She has since gone on to write a book, which I have here. I've actually ordered two of them. 

EA

Oh, thank you. 

CB      

Yes. So, The Good, The Bad and The Wobbly. So, we'll talk a bit about this, or quite a lot about this in our chat and, and more, I guess, not importantly, but you've just finished your GCSEs as well.

EA

Yes.

CB

So you're doing a lot more than the average 16-year-old.

EA       

Only a tiny bit.

00:02:31

CB      

Where do you get your energy from? That's what I'd like to know.

EA       

Well, I'm in bed by seven p.m.

CB      

Oh, yes?

EA       

Yes. So my energy doesn't last.

CB      

But you have to be careful with pacing, Eva.

EA       

Yes. So, because I do so much in the day, it means I get very tired.

CB      

Yes. Well, that's when we rest and recuperate as well, is when we sleep.

EA       

Yes, definitely.

CB      

So, let's start off. So, this interview or this chat, rather, it’s not interview, is it, is going to focus on education and mental health. But we just need to be conscious, of course, of who is listening, and so we’re sensitive about what we're talking about. But this is about Eva's experiences. So, can we start off? Can you explain to me and everybody listening, cerebral palsy, what is cerebral palsy, and what symptoms do you experience?

EA       

So, cerebral palsy is damage to the brain when we were mainly young, and the symptoms I get are my hands and legs shake, my speech affected, I get very tired, and just daily tasks are hard.

00:03:55

CB      

So, that's quite all-encompassing, what you've explained there.

EA       

Yes.

CB      

What steps do you take to manage some of those symptoms?

EA       

Well, tiredness, I’ve got a wheelchair for when I'm out and about. Like I just said, I go to bed early. I have support in college and support from family. I have a support worker who comes and helps me within the day.

CB      

And I remember that when we spoke last time, you spoke, and you do mention it in your book, and I think a lot of people will be interested to hear about this, about the Botox injections, yes?

EA       

Yes. 

CB      

So, this is not for catwalk health and beauty, is it?

EA       

No, no. I’m not Amanda Holden. No, I have Botox to help my muscles, because Botox freezes. And what it acts like, it’s freezing my shakes. So, it’s very clever, how it works. It is a pain, because I need them every six months. It doesn't last.

CB      

Is it painful when you have the injections?

EA       

I go asleep for it. I couldn't do it awake.

CB      

And those shakes then, Eva, that affects every part of your body, does it?

00:05:31

EA       

Yes. I’ve got quadriplegic cerebral palsy, so it affects every limb in my body.

CB      

Yes. So, doing daily tasks, you talk about it in your book, so cooking, for example.

EA       

Yes. Oh, it's very hard.

CB      

Do you have specially adapted utensils, or do you manage that?

EA       

Well, I don't know if you’ve seen it on Disability Expo or Nadex [?], but I have a Thermomix.

CB      

Oh, okay. Talk to me about that.

EA       

So, it’s literally a machine. They were on stage at Disability Expo. I don’t know if you’ve seen it. But you can chuck a whole potato in. It peels it, boils it, mashes it for you. You can chuck everything in there and press start, and then it makes a cover or anything you want. It’s amazing. 

CB      

That's called a Thermomix?

EA       

Yes. 

CB      

Brilliant. I would imagine these things are not cheap, though, are they? 

EA       

No. 

CB      

That's one of the issues, isn't it?

EA

Yes. Yes. 

00:06:50

CB      

With the things that are available. 

EA       

I think anything designed for disability, they bump the price up. I have cups for my shakes, and all it is, is a plastic handle. It's a total normally cup. But because it's for people with special needs, it's £30, which is ridiculous. But people would pay for it. So, it’s of those things.

CB      

Yes. That is a lot of money for a basic item. A cup is a basic item. 

EA       

Yes, it’s ridiculous. But people with disabilities have to pay for these things to do daily tasks, so companies can charge whatever they like.

CB      

Yes. And your dad's a fireman, isn't he? So he must be having to work pretty hard to support you. And you’ve got three brothers, isn't it?

EA       

Yes.

CB      

So he must be doing a lot of overtime. A

EA       

Yes. 

CB      

We're getting some comments here.

EA       

Are there?

00:08:12

CB      

Yes, there's lots of comments about how expensive. They can't believe that, £30 for these items.

EA       

I know, it's ridiculous. You're gone. You’ve gone. 

CB      

Think are the misconceptions with your, well, with cerebral palsy. So, I've just run through a whole host of things that you've achieved, and you’re 16. You've achieved more than I have at my age, which is not 16. And so, what would you say, in your opinion, is one of the misconceptions about people who have got cerebral palsy?

EA       

I think one of the misconceptions is what we can do, mainly in education, because we look disabled. They don't realise that our minds are exactly the same, and we can do whatever we want to do. And I don't think it hits people.

CB      

Yes. And do you think also…? Communication is one thing, I think, well, not one thing, one of the things that individuals are really judged on as a perception of intellect, and allowing somebody the space to talk.

EA       

Yes, definitely. I find this a lot. People don't have the time to listen to me talk, meaning that they don't listen to me. And it’s quite sad, really, that the world has come to this.

00:10:10

CB      

Yes. Yes, I agree. And so, I think if we think about now you're doing an Instagram Live, there's no rehearsing, there's no editing to this. We're just having a chat, right? So, to do this, going on stage and your Britain's Got Talent comedy routine in front of all of those people, where did you get the strength to do that, because I know that your school experience prior to this college that you've been at to do your GCSEs, it wasn't a happy experience, was it?

EA       

No. So, a month before I went on BGT, I wouldn't even put my hand up in class. I was so scared. But something just clicked saying that I’ve got a voice and I want to use it. So, being on stage, I find no one can interfere in what I want to say. No one can say anything back to you. It is your ten minutes to say what you like. And I love that.

CB      

Yes, of course. I's your platform. And, of course, nobody's going to interrupt you. So, no, I understand that now. It must feel like a real sense of freedom, actually.

EA       

It does really feel like I own the stage. And now I haven't stopped comedy, but I moved on to motivational speaking, and that has given me even more of a leap into saying what I need to say.

CB      

So, let's talk about that, your motivational speaking. So, your experience at school. And from what I've read in your book and the conversations that we had previously when we met at Disability Expo last year, it wasn't just the children, was it? There were comments from teachers as well.

EA       

Yes. Yes.

CB      

Do you want to share any of that?

00:12:20

EA       

Yes. They used to say... They used to make me stand up and tell me that I act like a dog. They once put a photo of Stephen Hawkins up on the monitor and said, this is how Eva would look like if she was really disabled.

CB      

Is this a teacher?

EA       

Yes. This was in class, in front of everybody. And just some of the things they said to me wasn't right. And then my mum went into a meeting with the headmaster about what’s going on with bullying and whatever, and his reply was, I can see why no one will make friends with Eva, because of a disability. And after that is when I left.

CB      

You cannot stay in an environment like that. That is the cruellest, cruellest thing I've ever heard. And for that to be coming from the top. Disgusting.

EA       

Yes. But to me, this is how people with disabilities are treated in school.

CB      

Every day.

EA       

Yes. So, it's not just me. I've heard other people's stories of how they've been treated, and it's not okay. Things need to change.

CB      

So, that is what’s brought you to create your, what do you call them? I've highlighted it in the book with a highlighter. Let me get my glasses back on. Yes, spread the kindness.

00:14:15

EA       

Oh, yes. So, now I'm in college, my time is very limited. And I’ve got to say, I love college. I’ve made so many good friends, and I really enjoy it. I’m studying health and social care, and I love it. But when I do have free time, I go around to schools and do talks about disabilities and being different. And now my time’s limited, I’ve actually done another TV documentary on how to treat people with disabilities. It’s on, FYI, Sky Kids, I think. But from that, I had the opportunity to make spread the kindness as a video to be sent out to schools.

CB      

That's amazing. So, with their backing, you've been able to reach more schools, more students.

EA       

Yes. Yes. So, I reach schools all over the country now.

CB      

Oh, Eva, that is phenomenal. Absolutely phenomenal, because in your book, you say, I've done it about 20 times, and it's been received really well. And now look at you.

EA       

Yes. Thank you. 

CB      

Gosh, your parents must be so proud of you. I'm proud of you. So, they must be so proud of you.

EA       

Oh, thank you.

CB      

We've got some questions here. So, let me have a look. So, there's a question here. How do you deal with the judgement from people on your disability? How do you get through that?

00:15:56

EA       

Obviously, it's very upsetting. But I think the more times it’s happened, the more time I got used to it and just ignore it. I think when I was young and it first started happening, it would literally destroy my day and weekend [?]. I would be so upset. But now if someone says something, I really don't care.

CB      

Yes. What is it they say? Your skin’s is getting tougher. Tough skin, I think that's the expression, isn't it? 

EA       

Yes. Yes. 

CB      

It's a shame that people have to go through that, though.

EA       

No, it is a shame. But what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

CB      

Yes. And what's really wonderful about the spirit that you've got is that you are really turning this into a positive. You're trying to provide that safety net for other young people who have had similar experiences to you, but also educating other people who don't live with disability and don't understand it, about the impacts that comments can have.

EA       

Yes, I think people spend so much time trying to teach disabled people how to communicate with others. And really, it’s others that need to learn how to communicate with people with disabilities. And I think that's where the problem lies.

00:17:40

CB      

That's exactly right. That's exactly right. Somebody said, we love you, Eva. You're the best.

EA       

Oh, thank you. I can't see any of it.

CB      

To be honest, I'm a dinosaur, so I can see some of them on here. And then Rebecca, she's also sending them to me on another screen so that I don't miss all of them. But, yes, you're getting loads of comments. Lovely. Well done. So, somebody said, have you ever felt left out of student outside activities?

EA       

Oh, always. There has never really been an activity when I was younger, I could join in with that. That’s because they don't put in place support for people with disabilities. 

I actually spoke to Gillian Keegan the other week, who’s the Education Secretary, and they said that the Government are putting money into special schools, but they're not going to put any money into mainstream schools for people with disabilities, and if they do, it won't be at lunch time or the socialising part of things, which I thought was a bit sad, because they expect everyone with special needs is going to one setting.

CB      

Yes. I was listening to another podcast actually earlier today, and it was a man reflecting on his childhood at school. And he had a breathing apparatus, and he didn't realise when he was younger, because everybody would go out and play at playtime and break time, and he was kept inside. 

00:19:43

And so, he started obviously getting really upset, frustrated. And that came out in different ways, probably aggression and emotion. And it was because, oh, well, you can't go outside because you could pick up an infection. So, he was completely isolated in exactly the way that you're talking about. He’s [unclear] school.

EA       

I just think you’ve got to live your life. You can't spend your life inside, can you?

CB      

No. Those social interactions are more important, I sometimes feel, than the academic side.

EA       

Oh, definitely. You can't get anywhere in life if you can't communicate with people. You can't get a job if you can't do teamwork, if you can't accept people.

CB      

So, are you going to be doing a bit of lobbying them with this MP for getting some more funding to actually have proper integration in mainstream schools?

EA       

Hopefully in the future. 

CB      

Yes. Well, I'm sure everybody watching this will be right behind you and supporting you.

EA       

Thanks.

CB      

Right. So, we’ve got another question here. So, Vanessa says, how to stop caring what others think. I really struggle with this, so I would like to hear what you think about that.

00:21:19

EA       

Obviously, I think you can't stop caring about what people think because their opinions hurt. But I think how you manage them has to be a big thing. I used to get very angry, very upset. But now I try and turn it around and think, not laugh at it, because it's still upsetting, but I do try and find the positives like, oh, that person needs educating a bit more of something like that. And I think that's really important.

CB      

Yes, it is. It is. We've got to take everyone on this journey with us. It's very often out of ignorance, isn't it?

EA       

Yes, definitely.

CB      

So, your educational experience at school was appalling, but you have managed to get some tutoring. But I read in your book, it was incredibly expensive for the private tutoring. It must have been a whole heap of pain trying to get funding from the council. So, you don't have to tell me what your results are or anything, but how did you end up actually doing your GCSEs, and how did you find that experience?

EA       

Well, I had no help, I’ve got to say, from the local authorities, so I did it all myself, and I passed everything that I wanted to pass. And I passed so much that I actually went up a level in college. I was meant to start at Level Two, but now I’ve gone straight up to Level Three.

00:23:14

CB      

That is fantastic. That's so good. That really is. 

EA       

Thank you. And now I'm planning to go to university next year. And, yes, my life's starting to be perfect.

CB      

And that's from the hard work that you've put in, but you've had to have support from your family and [unclear] as well, haven't you?

EA       

Yes. Pardon?

CB      

You had support from CAMHS as well as well at some point?

EA       

Yes, but [unclear] cancer. 

CB

Oh, really.

EA       

Yes. They’re awful.

CB      

Okay.

EA       

So, you probably read this in my book. My disability was caused by the hospital, meaning I had a court case. So, all my care I have is private, which is obviously really helpful for me. So, I did have good care through the crisis I went through, but not by CAMHS. I would do stuff. I walked into CAMHS once and they said, oh, Eva, you look nice, who dressed you today?

00:24:34

CB      

Oh, dear.

EA       

And I was like, what the hell? And then in the same session they asked me what my favourite princess is. I was 16 at the time. And I just found it not very nice really.

CB      

Yes. That's not getting to know you. That's not talking to you like an individual at all, is it?

EA       

No, definitely not.

CB      

So, I guess then what we want to find out is, we've referred back to this book a little bit here. I just want to show it again, everybody. So, the proceeds of this book are going to Birmingham Children's Hospital, aren't they? 

EA       

Yes. 

CB      

And I've had over 700 specialist appointments at this hospital. Is that right?

EA       

Yes, that's right.

CB      

My brain can't even process what that equates to on a weekly, monthly, yearly basis.

EA       

Probably about two a week, I have.

CB      

That is phenomenal.

00:25:52

EA       

We do have people come to our house a lot, which is nice because we don't have a full. So, they do come to us sometimes.

CB      

Yes, because that’s it, you've got the journey time as well, haven't you, back and forth?

EA       

Yes. But, oh well, it’s next to the Bullring, so what can I say? I drag my mum around the six-storey Primark.

CB      

Six storeys.

EA       

Yes.

CB      

Is it the biggest Primark in the UK then?

EA       

I think so. They’ve got a Gregg’s in there and the cafe.

CB      

Oh, gosh. So, if anybody who doesn't know, the Bullring is in Birmingham, and if you haven't been able to detect it from Eva’s accent, she's from around that area. So, tell us about the book then. So, why did you decide to write it?

EA       

Because I go on stage and people see this happy, positive person, but that’s… Yes, I can be that, but that hasn't been my life. I've been through depression. I've been through suicidal thoughts. I've been through a lot. And I wanted to show people that it's okay to feel like this and it’s okay not to be okay sometimes.

00:27:21

CB      

Yes. Yes, because I think that you have a position of power, right? And it's actually, for being so young as well, and being so sensitive to other people who are going through similar experiences to you, that’s quite a lot of responsibility for you to shoulder, actually. 

And I do remember that when Paul and I had our chat with you on the podcast at Disability Expo last year, we were talking a lot about your experience at Britain's Got Talent and can you tell us a joke and that kind of thing. And I remember that you were quite keen to say, that's not the whole of me, and there's a lot more to me, and that you've been through a lot. And you spoke about the documentary that you had been working on. And in writing the book, this is in your own words, isn't it? Reading it, it's very much like you’re talking.

EA       

Yes. So, I wrote [?] the book, and I just wanted to tell people the truth because it had been f eeling like I was lying to people for the last couple of years. Not that I… It’s my choice if I tell people what happened, but I think it’s fair to tell people what's going on, and it might help other people to know that this stuff can happen.

CB      

Yes, yes. As you said, the title is excellent, The Good, The Bad and The Wobbly. So, yes, I think it's an excellent title. So, I don't know if you would like to give a little snapshot of what people can expect if they read this book, because I would definitely recommend everybody buy it. I'm a really, really slow reader. It takes me a long time to read. And, yes, I can read, but it's not something I whizz through. But I have to say, it is actually a really easy read.

00:29:36

EA       

Yes, my aim was to make it a really easy read, because I struggle to read myself, and I just think it's inclusive, making it easier to read. But the book is funny parts of my life, it’s sad parts of my life. Everything that's gone on in my life is in the book, so it’s literally the truth. I haven't hidden anything away. I put everything down in it.

CB      

People are asking if they can buy it on Kindle or if it's on Amazon.

EA       

No, we're not on Kindle yet, but we're on Amazon. The book’s on Amazon. But if you buy it off Amazon, they keep a large amount of the money. So, only a small amount goes to the children's hospital. But if you buy it on my website, www.evaabley.com, most of the money goes to the children's hospital.

CB      

And what we'll do is we will put the link to Eva's website in the show notes, etc, because I will also put this on our podcast, which is the Sunflower Conversations podcast. So you'll be able to access it either from our social media channels or the podcast or the website. There'll be many places that you can find it, but if you just pop Eva's name into Google, it will come up anyway.

There’s a couple of other questions for you, Eva, if you don't mind. So, what have we got here? So, what's the book called? The book is called The Good, The Bad and The Wobbly. So, I've got that ring light, put the ring light on to basically make myself look better, but you can't see the book. Let me just turn it off. Hold on.

00:31:42

Oh, that's better, isn't it? The Good, The Bad and The Wobbly. And the question is, how do we as a family support our grandchildren? The thought of them going through these terrible comments breaks my heart. So, this is some grandparents asking this question.

EA       

Yes. Obviously, you can't change what people say, but just when I went through depression, I thought that I had no one in life, and that's part of depression. But, in fact, all my family were behind me every step of the way. So, I just think it’s reassuring them that they are there for them, doing things for them, trying to get them out, trying to break positives into negatives.

CB      

That's a lovely answer. Thank you. I'm just going to see whether there are any. There have been a lot of questions, so it's been a bit difficult. Somebody here says, not really a question, Eva, but loved your performance on Britain's Got Talent. I was the witch. And you're a superstar. Big fan. And that's Martin Portlock. I don’t know if that has any resonance for you. Somebody else is asking, did you enjoy writing the book?

EA       

I really enjoyed writing the book, but it was very tough writing about my highs and lows. It was a struggle. But now I’ve done it, I am so happy it’s out there.

CB      

Yes, and that's the thing. It's like, this is a memoir. And in ten years when you look back and read this, it will be really interesting to see where you are in your life.

EA       

I might have a book [unclear] by then.

00:33:56

CB      

I reckon it will be on some sort of series, Netflix series about your life in ten years’ time, The Chronicles of Eva. So, I guess, well, from me, I wanted to ask about the Sunflower, the Hidden Disability Sunflower. What do you think about the Hidden Disability Sunflower?

EA       

I think it's amazing. And I think the sunflower definitely works within shops, especially airports. I use mine a lot in airports, and I’ve got to say that’s the biggest place I get the most support from.

CB      

Thank you. Yes. And can you explain to people who maybe…? I know that we're on our channel, but you might have some people watching this on your side who don't really know what the Sunflower is. Would you mind explaining in your words what it is?

EA       

So, the Sunflower represent that you have a hidden disability or might need extra support and things. And people who work in shops, in airports, should have knowledge that if you’re wearing the Sunflower, you may find things a bit trickier. So, they may need to do stuff to help you.

CB      

That's great. Thank you. Thanks, Eva. So, I guess my final question, so that you can get on with your evening. So many nice comments. I wish I could read them all. Love the positivity of the Sunflower. It’s always looking for the light. Oh, that's lovely. That's really nice. Somebody else says, so proud of you, Eva. And then [unclear] person, you're amazing.

EA       

Oh, thank you, guys.

00:35:53

CB      

Oh, here. Somebody says, number ten in a few years. Could be. That’s Tom Riner. So, yes, I agree. I agree. I hope you'd invite us in for some tea and little sandwiches when you get there. 

EA       

Of course. 

CB      

So, my final question is, do you have any advice for students and families who are young, still at school, and in this educational hamster wheel?

EA       

School is a load of crap. And we all know that. Let's be honest, it isn't made for people with disabilities. And everybody said to me, well, when you get older and go to college, things will change. People are there because they want to be there. You’re doing a course that you enjoy. You’ve got the right support around you. And I always thought, nah, they’re lying. They’re trying to make me feel better. 

But honestly, I’ve now started college, and I fully believe them. I'm living my best life at the moment, and it's totally making up for everything that has happened to me in the past.

CB      

That's fantastic. That is fantastic. And that is a real beacon of light to everybody listening, to know that you will turn the corner, and you will find your place, your happy place, and join in the pursuits that you enjoy and fulfil your potential.

EA       

I think at school, kids are forced to go to school whether they like it or not. 

00:37:47

So, if they're not interested in the subject, they find it hard, so they just pick on people, bully people to get through the day, whereas college, you go there to study. You study what you want to study, and you meet people with the same interests. And it's really good.

CB

Yes. Yes, because you're making that choice about what you want to learn about. And I think having that control over what you're doing makes a big difference.

EA       

Yes. And the college said to me, in health and social care, if someone picks on you for your disability, they shouldn't be doing that course. And that has really stuck with me, knowing that the people there want to learn about disabilities and want to help people. And not that I want to be babied by them, if that's even a word, I’m not sure. It’s just nice knowing that everyone there accepts.

CB      

Acceptance.

EA       

Yes. Yes.

CB      

Right. I'm going to end the Instagram Live because I think that's a great word to end on, acceptance. I want to say, from everyone here at the Sunflower, we’re really enjoying your journey of how you're developing and growing. And we're going to definitely stay in touch and continue the friendship, and you know that you have everybody's support from here.

EA

Oh, that means so much. Thank you.

00:39:45

CB      

You‘re very welcome. And thanks to everybody who joined. What's this say? Oh, yes, there's a question in here. I work in a group home for disabled. What's your opinion of group homes? I don't know whether you are able to answer that one. Go on.

EA       

The only experience I have is I go to residential camps for people with disabilities. And I absolutely love them.

CB      

Yes, I saw one for cerebral palsy.

EA       

Yes. So, I go on them as much as I can throughout the year. And that's the only thing I've ever been close to as a disability home. So, I'm just thinking that it would kind of be like that. And I love it. You’re around people who are like you. You get the right support. You make friendships. You get try new challenges. That week when I went to camp, I did things that I never thought I could do in life, like abseiling and caving. So I do think it's an amazing opportunity to have.

CB      

Brilliant. That's great. And then just finally, it's just a comment that somebody’s made, that they have an assistance dog to support them with their mental health. And we will be doing a podcast about assistance dogs, because they are so wonderful.

EA       

Yes, my dog means everything, and although he’s not qualified in mental health, he has definitely helped my mental health, even though he takes all my socks and pants.

00:41:46

CB      

Does he nibble them?

EA       

Yes. Yes. Even though he does that, they are still good for your mental health.

CB      

Good. Good. Right. I'm going to bring this to a close. So, thank you, Eva, and thank you to everybody who has joined this chat tonight. We're really grateful for your time. And please share it so that other people can link in with Eva and learn more about cerebral palsy.

EA       

Thank you so much for having me. It’s been great chatting to you and hearing all your guys’ comments.

CB      

Yes, it's been brilliant. Okay, right. Now I have to try and end this in a really professional manner to find the end. So, have a lovely evening, Eva, and goodbye to everybody else.

EA       

Thank you. [Unclear]. 

CB      

Yes. Okay. Thank you.

EA       

Bye.

CB      

Bye, everybody. I should try and turn it off.

VO

If you’d like to share your Sunflower story or conversation, please email conversations@hdsunflower.com. Find out more about us, or listen to this recording again, by checking out our insights page at hdsunflower.com. You can also find us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, and LinkedIn. Please help, have patience, and show kindness to others, and join us again soon, making the invisible visible with the Hidden Disabilities Sunflower.

00:42:59