The Sunflower Conversations

Welcome to the Sunflower Conversations, the podcast where we explore the experiences of disabled people with non-visible disabilities through the lens of the Hidden Disabilities Sunflower.

This is a space to hear authentic stories from disabled people navigating life with non-visible disabilities such as chronic illness, mental health conditions, neurodivergence, and more. While most episodes focus on lived experience, we also feature occasional insights from experts in healthcare, accessibility, and inclusion.

Whether you or someone you care about wears the Sunflower, our conversations aim to raise awareness, build understanding, and help create a more inclusive and compassionate world.

Empowering voices. Raising awareness. Challenging assumptions - one conversation at a time.

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The Sunflower Conversations

Autism with Patrick Fopma

July 16, 2023 • Hidden Disabilities Sunflower

0:00 | 8:40

For our first-ever face-to-face Sunflower Conversations recording, Chantal was joined by Patrick Fopma, who is autistic and who describes himself as having Aspergers. In our conversation, we discussed his differences, including how he wanted to fit in when he was at school. We cover his journey through education and the barriers he faced to gaining employment. Patrick offers some great advice to young autistic people but also to employers.

This was a live recording, and as such, the sound isn't the best quality.

If you are experiencing any issues discussed in this podcast please contact your GP or healthcare practitioner.

For support

National Autistic Society

Hosted by Chantal Boyle, Hidden Disabilities Sunflower.

Want to share your story? email conversations@hiddendisabilitiesstore.com

Music by "The Emerald Ruby" Emerald Ruby Bandcamp and Emerald Ruby website

VO Voiceover

CB Chantal Boyle

PF Patrick Fopma

00:00:00

VO
Welcome to The Sunflower Conversations, where we explore the Hidden Disability Sunflower and its role in supporting people with hidden disabilities.

CB
I’m Chantal, and joining me today on Sunflower Conversations is Patrick Fopma. And today we’re going to be discussing barriers faced, and what his experience has been like whilst trying to gain employment. Patrick, thanks for joining me today. How are you?

PF
Thank you very much. I’m good, thanks. How are you?

CB
I’m good. It’s very nice to be together in a physical presence rather than recording via Zoom, so it’s very exciting for me. Can you explain what neurodiversity means to you and how you see the world?

PF
To me, neurodiversity just means that the way you think is slightly different, just wired slightly differently than everyone else around you. And this can be sometimes obvious, and sometimes it can be completely hidden, but there’s a lot going on inside. It’s like a puzzle that I’m trying to solve.

00:01:08

So, it can be in the middle of a conversation and I’m like, okay, maintain eye contact, that’s a thing normal people do. But not too much eye contact. You’ve got to look away sometimes. And so, I’m not actually listening to what someone’s saying, because I’ve got all these things trying to reprogramme my behaviour and stuff that seems natural, seem more normal, and to fit in in certain… Yes, it’s what’s going on on the inside.

CB
Do you remember where you realised, oh my gosh, I’m totally looking at this person’s face? Do you remember how those neurotypical actions became a thing that you thought you must do?

PF
I took it as a challenge. My mum would always tell me, look at me while I’m talking to you. And then it was also teachers and stuff. And then I was like, okay, this is a thing that I’m doing because I have Asperger’s. So, I’m like, okay, I’m going to take it as a challenge to see whether I can do it, see whether I can appear more normal and appear less rude. Because I think a lot of people, if I’m talking the whole time like this, which may be more comfortable for me, it’s not so good for the person that I’m talking to. It makes me seem disengaged and not interested, and more likely to turn away or talk to someone else.

00:02:35

CB
It’s the direct opposite behaviour of neurotypical brain to neurodiverse brain, isn’t it? If one is your normal, it doesn’t mean it’s not normal. So, that’s a very important distinction to make here, and I think by having these conversations, it will help others who have neurotypical brains realise that this person is not engaged with what I’m saying.

Okay, well, thanks for explaining that. You went to university. What did you study? And whatever your chosen subject was, do you think you chose that because it leans more towards a neurodiverse brain?

PF
Yes, absolutely. So, I studied Maths at university, which is classic for people on the spectrum. It wasn’t that I particularly enjoyed Maths at school. It was just I did barely any work for it and was getting As.

CB
Really? Oh my gosh. That’s impressive.

PF
It’s just all these things, they come with benefits, and they come with things that are not so good. And one of the benefits is that Maths just makes sense to someone with my brain in a way that it doesn’t for neurotypical people. I have a very single-minded focus, which I means I get really into something, but can only really focus on that one thing, which meant having all of these different things that I wasn’t being able to give them all equal time and equal effort. It was really challenging.

00:04:05

CB
So, what accommodations, if any, were made for you during your time at university?

PF
So, irritatingly, there were things offered to me that I didn’t take, just I guess because of my own stubbornness at the time. When I was younger, I really wanted to just be normal. I wouldn’t tell anyone that I had a disability. I wouldn’t tell anyone that I had Asperger’s. I was like, no, I’m normal, I can do this, I can do it. But I guess the effort over time is just too much. So, if you make people aware of it, it’s so much easier to just be yourself and be comfortable.

CB
That’s with hindsight, then, right? Because obviously you’re young, and you’re growing up, and no-one wants to stand out, whether it’s with your clothing, or how you view the world, or your choice of pop star. We band together like sheep, in a sense. So, you’re not to blame for why you felt like that. If you had been more accepting, have you got some examples of what accommodations you could’ve had?

PF
Yes, so, I did get some things. I got some extra time in exams, which was as much as I was willing to get. But there were other things, like I could’ve taken the exam in an isolated space.

CB
So, you have some advice for anybody else who’s starting out at university, presumably.

PF
Get the help. Don’t die on your sword unnecessarily, it’s not worth it. The help is out there. Go get it.

00:05:52

CB
You’ve left university. You’ve completed your course. What support was offered, if any, to you about what comes next?

PF
In the four to five years after graduation, from there I was doing a little bit of maths tutoring, a little bit of tennis coaching. But in terms of actually getting a full-time job, that was really challenging. I did get some help from Oxford County Council. So, for a year, I had someone try to help me to get a job. That was a whole year.

It was actually after I’d finished my year with him where he failed to get me a job, or anything like that. But I then just through a friend of my mum, who happened to be the mother of the CEO at Hable, just got me a casual chat with the CEO, Mark, which because I thought it was just a casual chat, I treated it as such, and therefore I wasn’t nervous or trying to be someone I wasn’t in an interview, or something like that.

CB
Since you’ve started employment, what accommodations or adjustments have been made?

00:07:04

PF
Because I’m working remotely, a lot of the actual working conditions are stuff that I can control myself. But the one thing that I would say that Hable’s allowed me to do is work in my own way. When I work at home, I’m completely in the dark. So, I have these blinds completely across, and curtains across, and basically the only light is coming from my screen. And that’s how I focus best, is when I don’t have light around me. This is typical for people on the spectrum. I love that sort of dark working environment.

The biggest hurdle at the beginning, when it’s time to apply for jobs, is just writing out your application forms or writing your CV. So, really make an effort to talk to people, get help, find other people who know how to write these forms, how to write a CV, make sure that you just really try and sell yourself as well as possible.

CB
Patrick, thank you so much for your time to record with us today. I hope you’ve enjoyed it as much as I have.

PF
It’s been a pleasure.

CB
Thank you.

PF
Thanks.

VO
If you’d like to share your Sunflower story or conversation, please email conversations@hiddendisabilitiesstore.com. Find out more about us, or listen to this recording again, by checking out our insights page at hiddendisabilitiesstore.com. You can also find us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, and LinkedIn. Please help, have patience, and show kindness to others. And join us again soon, making the invisible visible with the Hidden Disabilities Sunflower.

00:08:52